A touchy subject

[KenpoTess]

Domestic Violence

How many of us have known someone in a situation of domestic violence? I know I have friends and acquaintances that refuse to do anything about their abusive significant other. Why is this? Why do they stay.. This is such a heinous crime but Fear of their partner and the stigma of anyone finding out is a big factor in the victims refusing help.

Domestic Violence Information Here (http://www.safetyforwomen.com/domestic.htm)

Women who cringe with terror and take the physical /verbal abuse of their man... Some crack and defend themselves finally, but if they haven't reached out to the Police or other agencies reporting the abuse, then the innocents are put away in jail...
Alcoholism, drug abuse (prescription or illegal), depression, child abuse.. stem from abuse .. Parent is abused.. what happens.. they in turn lash out at the child.. it's a horrific cycle.. and needs to stop.. So don't sit back if you know someone in need.. Offer a hand and if it's refused.. do whatever you can to help~!

Men are not immune from Domestic violence - though Most men won't admit to it .. It's much more prevalent than anyone realizes. There are some very disturbed people out there and if you know of a man who 's being battered or abused.. Get some help~! And no matter how much pride you have.. lose it and stop being the victim~!

Tess

Domestic Violence against Men (http://www.batteredmen.com/)

[lvwhitebir]

I found this on the web somewhere that I share with my students:

Why Do Women Return?
The Domestic Abuse Cycle
Why do women return to violent relationships?

This is one of the most common questions asked by the average person who doesn't understand domestic abuse. It's become a hot button with advocates, because it implies blame to the victim instead of the perpetrator. One valid response is to challenge the question itself:

"The question is not, 'why doesn't she just leave,'" we correct gently. "The question is, 'why doesn't he just stop hitting her?'"

We need to get this straight. The blame here lies squarely on the abuser, not the victim.

However, challenging the question only goes so far. A battered woman will return to her abuser eight or nine times before she leaves for good. And people ask, "Why?"

The fact that this question has persisted is an example of how poorly society understands the cycle of violence and the needs of battered women. Once you see a battered woman as an actual human being, the reasons she returns to her abuser are logical and straightforward.

Let's look at a battered woman with typical problems. A crisis center or Hotline tells her they can place her in a safe home, so she leaves her abuser. She brings her two children (in 70% of domestic violence cases if a man is beating his wife, he is also beating his children). After a few days in the safe house, the crisis center tells her that their funding only pays for three or four days residence.

"So what do I do now?" she asks. The crisis center gives her a list of battered women's shelters.

There's only one problem. All of the shelters are full.

She has no place to go. Her family abandoned her when she married the guy. Her friends can't afford to take her in, or are afraid to do so because her husband is so violent. She has no money and no resources, because everything is in her husband's name. She ends up living in her car.

The first or second night they spend in the car, she takes a serious look at her problems.

She's homeless.
One of her children has a fairly serious medical condition, like asthma or allergies. But the insurance is in her husband's name, so medical care is not available.
They're hungry, and she has no idea where she will get their next meal.
Since they're homeless, she risks losing custody of her children to her husband. And if he gets sole custody she won't be able to defend them.
She has been a wife and mother for years, so her education is either incomplete or obsolete. She has no job prospects or job training and is looking at a life in poverty, working for McDonald's.
Her husband beats her.

Notice that domestic violence is the sixth problem on her list. And as she sits in the car, watching the windows fog up, on alert for danger, listening to her children try to sleep, she is forced to face facts. If she returns to her abuser, five out of her six problems will be solved.

Abusers create these situations deliberately. They work to force their victims to stay with them by destroying all other options. And domestic violence will end only when society addresses all of the problems facing a battered woman.

Some of these problems do have answers and there are many domestic abuse survivors. We'll address these solutions in future articles, including developing personalized Safety Plans. But let's return to the question we posed: "Why does she go back?"

And now we have the answer: "Because everything is stacked against her."

Don't condemn the woman who goes back. Celebrate the woman who manages to escape.

[Ender]

Well that may be a factor in the whole issue. But another is that it becomes a sort of addiction for both parties. I have read how some experts call it a "sick dance". Many times the woman knows just what buttons to push on her husband and will do so subconciously. It could be for self esteem reasons, or guilt, or whatever. But studies now show BOTH are part of this. These people seem to find each other. And I'm not saying this to point any blame. But many times a woman , if she does leave, will find the same type of man again. The same with the man. Both parties need counseling.

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by Ender
Well that may be a factor in the whole issue. But another is that it becomes a sort of addiction for both parties. I have read how some experts call it a "sick dance". Many times the woman knows just what buttons to push on her husband and will do so subconciously. It could be for self esteem reasons, or guilt, or whatever. But studies now show BOTH are part of this. These people seem to find each other. And I'm not saying this to point any blame. But many times a woman , if she does leave, will find the same type of man again. The same with the man. Both parties need counseling.

It is almost as if they (male and female in DV cycles) seek out certain behavior tendencies in their partners.

I know of some people who have left their partner, if they find a new partner who is genuinely a very decent person--they think they don't deserve that new partner who actually knows how to treat people well?

What makes them think they *deserve* a partner who beats them up like their old one did?

This kind of thinking annoys me.

:soapbox:

- Ceicei

[Michael Billings]

Here is something I did.

Domestic Violence (http://kenpo-texas.com/kenpoarticles.htm#Billings1)

I used to work at the Center for Battered Women here in Austin as an intern.

Then for the Family Violence Diversion Network (Child and Family Service).

It is an increadibly complex question, with different reasons.

-MB

[KenpoTess]

Excellent Responses.. now if we could just change the system.. and make things happen..

Excellent Links for reference (http://www.womensshelter.com/do/Associates)


Michael... Thank you for your posted works.. I'm very pleased to know a felllow martial artist and Kenpoist is actually 'doing' something ~!!

[mj-hi-yah]

This is such an important topic. Let's hear from some more of you on it! :)

Why do people choose to stay in abusive relationships? I know a very outwardly confident woman, she is very successful in her work and most people would never guess from the face she puts on in public that she is in fact a battered woman. She is in a physically and emotionally abusive relationship. I would love to help her, but I don't know how to make her want to change her situation. I am perplexed by her answer to the question - why do you stay? Most of it stems around things in the material realm. I think at the heart of it is some kind of self esteem issue and perhaps some false pride (I have heard her say things like what will the neighbors think if they find out?). I have also heard the excuse that she stays for the children, but there is so much turmoil in the home that I wonder how can this be good for children?

[Shaolinwind]

Domestic Violence



Men are not immune from Domestic violence - though Most men won't admit to it .. It's much more prevalent than anyone realizes. There are some very disturbed people out there and if you know of a man who 's being battered or abused.. Get some help~! And no matter how much pride you have.. lose it and stop being the victim~!

Tess

Domestic Violence against Men (http://www.batteredmen.com/)

When you so much as push back you are the abuser. A man can cringe under a hundered violent attacks, but do something back just once and you're a demon.

[Lisa]

This is such an important topic. Let's hear from some more of you on it! :)

Why do people choose to stay in abusive relationships? I know a very outwardly confident woman, she is very successful in her work and most people would never guess from the face she puts on in public that she is in fact a battered woman. She is in a physically and emotionally abusive relationship. I would love to help her, but I don't know how to make her want to change her situation. I am perplexed by her answer to the question - why do you stay? Most of it stems around things in the material realm. I think at the heart of it is some kind of self esteem issue and perhaps some false pride (I have heard her say things like what will the neighbors think if they find out?). I have also heard the excuse that she stays for the children, but there is so much turmoil in the home that I wonder how can this be good for children?

I think we all know women like that, or have known them at one point or another. Yes, self-esteem has a big part in it. I remember being told by a woman I know that the fear of the unknown and what would happen to her and her children was too scary to deal with. She said that at least she knew and could "deal with" his anger and his outbursts and possibly avoid some of them. She felt "secure" (for lack of a better word) in the relationship because there was still a roof over her and her children's head and that he provided a "good" life for them. She made excuses for him. It was the stress of the job, she nagged him, etc.

I believe if you are told you are good for nothing long enough you believe it. I can't see how this is good for the children. It sets them up to possibly continue the cycle of abuse either by becoming an abuser or being abused themselves.

Important subject. Thank you MJ for bringing it up for discussion again on this board. Maybe we can help someone in that position.

[evenflow1121]

I agree with most of your argument Tess. You know a lot of times the reason or one of the reasons that women return is because their self esteem has been so shattered that they really do believe that they can not do any better than the dirt bag they are with.

As to the second part of your argument, I have a very good friend of mine guy is over 6 foot 3, toned guy, a lot of girls like him. He was in this relationship with this one girl, the girl would verbally abuse him and make him look like nothing for about 2 years. And you are right about being disturbed, that girl he was with was all sorts of wrong.

[shesulsa]

I was a victim of domestic violence. I'm at the library right now and will post more about my feelings on this when my home computer is up, but ... the sheer humiliation and dehumanization is incredible. I did leave when things finally became life-threatening after I lost many friends, the hope of my relatives and the kindness of just about anyone else who was left. Shelters were full - waiting list. My children were 11 months old and 4 years old, oldest one disabled. Take that onto the street? I don't think so.

One thing I can tell you is that "just making that decision" seems MUCH harder on the other side of that coin. I'm glad to be out and will NEVER tolerate that again.

[mj-hi-yah]

When you so much as push back you are the abuser. A man can cringe under a hundered violent attacks, but do something back just once and you're a demon.There is a double standard there for sure, and all the more reason for a man who is being abused to seek outside help. :asian:

[mj-hi-yah]

I think we all know women like that, or have known them at one point or another. Yes, self-esteem has a big part in it. I remember being told by a woman I know that the fear of the unknown and what would happen to her and her children was too scary to deal with. She said that at least she knew and could "deal with" his anger and his outbursts and possibly avoid some of them. She felt "secure" (for lack of a better word) in the relationship because there was still a roof over her and her children's head and that he provided a "good" life for them. She made excuses for him. It was the stress of the job, she nagged him, etc. I've heard the excuses. It saddens me...


I believe if you are told you are good for nothing long enough you believe it. I can't see how this is good for the children. It sets them up to possibly continue the cycle of abuse either by becoming an abuser or being abused themselves. It is a difficult cycle to break, yet some do...so what makes the difference?


Maybe we can help someone in that position.Yes I hope so, and hopefully it's helpful for men and women who deal with this to know they are not alone, and that help is available...

Georgia I look forward to your sharing more. You give such valuable insight! Unless you've been there it is difficult to relate to. I can appreciate, but not really understand. :asian:

[mj-hi-yah]

I agree with most of your argument Tess. You know a lot of times the reason or one of the reasons that women return is because their self esteem has been so shattered that they really do believe that they can not do any better than the dirt bag they are with.

As to the second part of your argument, I have a very good friend of mine guy is over 6 foot 3, toned guy, a lot of girls like him. He was in this relationship with this one girl, the girl would verbally abuse him and make him look like nothing for about 2 years. And you are right about being disturbed, that girl he was with was all sorts of wrong. What made him change that relationship do you think?

[Ceicei]

There is a double standard there for sure, and all the more reason for a man who is being abused to seek outside help. :asian:

Problem is seek where/how? There aren't too many places for men to go seek refuge. The stigma of being the abused is worse for men--even if they do go to the local DV shelters (where they would generally be more accepted than other places).

- Ceicei

[Lisa]

I've heard the excuses. It saddens me...

Me too, more times then I ever wanted to. What also alarms me is the length that the women in these situations go to to hide what is going on. The strong faces, the relatively perfect lifestyle they try to create to show the world, yet little hints still show through that make alarms (at least in me) go off and I wonder what is going on. The biggest one is the isolation from friends and family that these women find themselves in, always making excuses of being too busy or blaming others for their isolation.


It is a difficult cycle to break, yet some do...so what makes the difference?

A breaking point perhaps? I don't know. I would love to know others in this situation and what finally gave them the courage. I think it is important to share. It may help others in that situation and may help those of us that know women in those situations finally be able to face the truth and end the violence.


Yes I hope so, and hopefully it's helpful for men and women who deal with this to know they are not alone, and that help is available...

Agreed. :asian:


Georgia I look forward to your sharing more. You give such valuable insight! Unless you've been there it is difficult to relate to. I can appreciate, but not really understand. :asian:

Same here. I can appreciate, empathise and want to help but I often find myself at a loss for the right actions and words in these situations.

[mj-hi-yah]

Problem is seek where/how? There aren't too many places for men to go seek refuge. The stigma of being the abused is worse for men--even if they do go to the local DV shelters (where they would generally be more accepted than other places).

- CeiceiI agree, and I was thinking in terms of counseling. Finding someone to talk to about it. I think at the heart of it is self esteem. If a person is stripped of their self esteem, they may find it difficult to take action on their own behalf. Talking to a professional can help to restore that. Men or women faced with this problem need to take back their lives. It's difficult to do this alone I think.

[rutherford]

In my experience, even strong and independant ladies tend to blame themselves.

I was speaking with my girlfriend about this topic, and she flat out said that it takes two people to fight. That even by just staying in the relationship, the victim is perpetuating and enabling the violence.

I was horrified, and disagreed.

Listening to some of the stuff that's happened to her in the past . . . it's like somebody beating on my heart with a hammer.

It doesn't help that I have . . . some history with this topic as well.

There are a lot of people out there carrying a lot of pain. Thank you for doing anything you can to help.

[Ceicei]

I agree, and I was thinking in terms of counseling. Finding someone to talk to about it. I think at the heart of it is self esteem. If a person is stripped of their self esteem, they may find it difficult to take action on their own behalf. Talking to a professional can help to restore that. Men or women faced with this problem need to take back their lives. It's difficult to do this alone I think.

Counseling? Even with that..... Just the mere word of "counseling" often gives some people a sense of "I've failed" or "there's a problem". True enough, there IS a problem--exactly the reason why counseling is recommended, but why so much resistance? This doesn't have to mean that counseling is something to be ashamed. People generally would rather pretend there isn't a problem or that they can "handle it" and tend to put off counseling until they a compelling reason to go.

I don't know... What is the best way to modify how people view counseling?

- Ceicei

[Carol]

This is going to be a very long post. I apologize, but I don't know how to say this without going in to detail.

My husband was a respected and very educated professional. He was a loving husband and a good friend. We rarely fought. He never hurt me or belittled me in any way. I don't even think he ever even raised his voice with me. But he took up some bad habits that really hurt his body. The strain took a toll on my own body. While he and I were each recovering from major surgery, a conversation we had ended with him choosing to move out.

The court magistrate thought it was odd that neither one of us had any attorneys, but when it came time to be heard, the judge seemed relieved that neither one of us seemed argumentative. The house sold as the legal matter was finalized. He moved in someone that he eventually married. I moved to an apartment closer to the city and started to rebuild my life.

It was then that I realized that I had no friends. Over and over I heard so many things from people I knew that I though were my friends...but weren't.

"If he was such a good guy, then why did you split up?"

"You KNOW he was cheating on you. Why didn't you sue him for all he's got?"

"That's it? You just decided to...end it? No counseling no nothing?"

Some people blamed me for the dissolution, or looked at me with a very denigrating glance. Shockingly, some of this was from my own family.

I never expected anyone to tell me to slap me on the back and tell me that I was "doing the right thing" but I totally did not expect my friends and my family to turn on me the way I did. The only support I truly had was a casual contact...an old colleague from my town that lost his wife to cancer and understood what it was truly like to lose a spouse.

Since then, I've rebuilt my life...almost. I rebuilt my health, I rebuilt my career...which was damaged from my health. I don't have someone special in my life but I have someTHING special in my life...martial arts.

And perhaps most importantly, I've made new friends.

Now...picture the pain that I have described and multiply it. 10 times worse. 100 times worse. That is what is happening to one of my friends right now who is not only going through a divorce, but divorcing a man that was beating her. My friend is not a saint, she has had an affair. I don't like the fact that she had an affair, and she knows that I do not approve. But she is still my friend.

She also knows how judgemental people can be. How it doesn't matter if you are an Irish-Catholic Boston suburb, a Jewish neighborhood of New York City, a Korean section of Los Angeles, an Indian community in Silicon Valley...or none of the above....there are people that would much rather judge you or fingerpoint in your affairs than there are people that are willing to give you the motivation to either solve your problems or to peacefully split.

Yet I know many of the people in my friend's family or community. Some believe that an aldutress is worth scorning to a level of denegratin far below that of a wife-beater. My friend moved out...and eventually moved back in with her battering husband once she started feeling the bad effects of what he was saying about her.

I've been in a public place where I have heard someone that I know openly ponder whether he deserved to be cheated upon...and worse, whether she deserved to be hit.

Then there are those that simply don't believe that such a bad thing could come from such a "nice" couple. Or such a successful couple. Or such a smart couple. With such nice kids.

What kind of fear and pain is out there? It's the fear that was on the other end of my cell phone, when she called just to talk. It's the fear that I feel knowing that I am talking to a thirty-something year old woman with a graduate degree from a famous business school. A woman who tells me about a bruise on her back and what she thinks is a broken bone in her foot...but was too afraid to go to the doctor.

What hurts me is not my pain, I've gotten better. It's not my friend's pain, she's getting better. It's the broad-based, judgemental revulsion of a person that is suffering.

Think about it. People will say their values are from their Religion. Culture. Nationality. Skin color. Dogmatism. Meditation. Philosophy. Logic. Belief in God. Belief in many Gods. The belief that one does not have to believe in God to be a good person. Agnosticism. Atheism. Spirituality. Karma. Crystals. Tea Leaves. Luck. Gut instinct. Past lives. Experience. Feelings. Parents. Astrology. A combination of one or more. Other things that I can't think of.

But, sadly, there is one commonality to this diversity...and that is the amount of people that do not want to lend a hand...they simply want to point a finger. The attitude of my friend MUST know better, or else there is something totally WRONG with her.

And treating her like dirt will somehow FIX what is wrong with her and make her better?


There is a bravery to martial artists. We have to be able to take a kick, or a punch. Perhaps it's worth remembering that there are people out there that CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be taking a punch. And perhaps, our training has made us strong enough, brave enough, and humble enough, to simply reach out somehow...to a person that is struggling. And to not let them know they are forgotten, or worthless, or unloved.

[Kacey]

I was never physically abused - although the bruises from TKD class caused people to ask some searching questions, and that let me know who my real friends were when I needed them. Instead, my ex-husband extended his low self-esteem onto me, to the point where, knowing all the negatives about him, I felt that I deserved no better than a spouse who:

couldn't hold a job - and didn't need to, because I had had the same job for 8 years, so there was always that to fall back on (the year before we got divorced, he had 11 jobs - one with the Army Reserves, and one that lasted 6 months... and 9 others in the other 6 months)
was careless with money - because I paid all the bills, and I was there to pick up the financial pieces - over and over again
had problems with social skills - and didn't work on them because I was there to smooth things over when he offended people 'without knowing what I did - it's not my fault s/he took it wrong'
went to marriage counseling and, despite missing at least 1/3 of the sessions, convinced the counselor that everything was because I wouldn't work on the marriage
who made me feel, for years, as if all of his failures were my fault (e.g. "I got fired from that job trying to find a better one to please you" - a long story I won't go into here, but that was the gist of it) When I finally filed for divorce, I recieved an incredible amount of support from everyone who knew him - my friends, my TKD classmates, my instructor (who, I found out later, had not kicked him out of the class some time earlier because he didn't want to me to have to choose between TKD and my marriage)... it turned out that NO ONE thought it was a bad decision, although, after awhile, I did get tired of hearing "Don't you wish you'd done it sooner?" and variations thereof.

My ex-husband was not physically abusive, but he was emotionally abusive, and it took me years to get over it (the divorce was final in 1994). In some ways, I'm still not over it; some things will linger for decades longer or perhaps forever... but I am aware of them now, and how to know when I fall into the patterns I developed when I was married that led to not leaving an abusive situation, and how to deal with it.

Many people who are abused, physically, mentally, or emotionally, feel that they deserve the abuse they receive. Often, they were abused in some fashion by a family member, and are not aware that there is another way to relate to someone; abuse often runs in families, and in cycles. In addition, abuse is generally not constant beatings; indeed, many abusers abuse, and then feel remorse, which they demonstrated, and pledge to never abuse again... until something sets off the cycle, again, and again, and again. Until a person leaves an abusive relationship, with all the problems that can bring, as listed in previous postings in this thread, it is often not apparent just how pervasive the abuse was. Abusers often deliberately cut their victims off from any potential support systems - moving far away from friends and family, enforcing rigid standards (e.g. cleanliness of the house that requires hours to maintain, meals on a rigid schedule, monitoring all communications, preventing education, etc.), threaten loved ones... anything to control the victim. And here is an important point - domestic abuse is about control. Violence may be used; it may not - the key is control of the victim. So many aspects of a victim's life are beyond his/her control that leaving is far more difficult than anyone who has not been there can understand. Leaving an abusive relationship (of any type) is an act of courage that many people cannot manage.

Like child abuse, there are several things you can do to help a victim:


ALWAYS BELIEVE THE VICTIM - this is not something that people lie about. The social norms work against lying about abuse; after all, the social norms work against discussing abuse at all. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen - but it is rare. The courage required to discuss abuse is immense - once one person refuses to listen, the victim may never speak again.
Know how to help a victim. Have access to a list of support agencies - this can be as simple as calling any major social services agency in your area.
Be supportive, but don't push. Even discussing abuse can be difficult; as much as you might want to help someone out of an abusive relationship, if you push too hard, the victim may stop trusting you, and never report the abuse to anyone else. Be open at any time, provide options, and never attempt to guilt the victim into leaving. If you feel the victim (or the victim's child/ren) is at immediate risk - call the police. They would much rather investigate an erroneous report than an assault or murder... and your report may be the final piece of evidence needed to remove the abuser.
Remember than someone who leaves an abusive situation will often lose everything - for child abuse, the child is removed from the only home s/he has ever known; for spousal abuse, the victim will leave, and often never recover any of the items left behind, including home, photographs, family heirlooms, and so on. This is a difficult and disturbing issue, and needs to be pushed out of the shadows and into the light of day so that it can be dealt with. As long as abuse is a socially inappropriate topic, it will remain hard to find and prove, and harder to eradicate.

[mj-hi-yah]

There is a bravery to martial artists. We have to be able to take a kick, or a punch. Perhaps it's worth remembering that there are people out there that CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be taking a punch. And perhaps, our training has made us strong enough, brave enough, and humble enough, to simply reach out somehow...to a person that is struggling. And to not let them know they are forgotten, or worthless, or unloved.Well said. :asian: I'm sorry for your friend and for how some people chose to behave around her situation. Sadly, you may be right about people in society, but I hope not, but then I am a bit of an idealist...I think people want to help. They just may not know how to go about it. I know I want to genuinely help these people that I care about, but I'm not ever sure if I'm doing the right thing...

I don't think anyone wants to be abused, or can easily change their situations. For some it is all they know. I had a friend from High School who married an abusive alcoholic and she later told me that she married him because he was just like her father, but this revelation took years. I don't think she understood on a conscious level going in that she was unable at the time to break the cycle of abuse. There was one curious thing that happened. When a mutual friend of ours reached out to her to try and help her. To try and encourage her to leave, she cut off the friendship, and was angry at the girl for saying that there was a need to change. She was especially angry at her for verbalizing how abusive a situation it appeared to be (when clearly it was), and for saying what a jerk the guy was. I believe that at the time my friend was not ready to handle the change that was necessary in admitting that there was a problem. I took a different approach, and I never said a bad thing about the guy, because I believed/understood that on some level this would only add to her low sense of self in that she made a choice in marrying such a man, and a choice to stay. The signs of abuse were clearly there before the marriage. Instead of stating the obvious to her, I listened often. I can't say that my approach was right and my other friend's was wrong, as I'm not sure what is the right thing to do, or way to be surrounding this type of thing. I just know that I can support and offer my help, but do so with caution, and be there for when a friend is ready to accept my help. She finally did change her situation and is now many years later very happily married to one of the nicest guys I've ever met. We are still friendly but the other friendship did not survive.

I've seen this happen two other times with women who were clearly in relationships with men that were no good for them. When people spoke the truth about the situation to them in an attempt to "help", the abuse victim wound up being very hurt by the words, and upset with the ones who spoke them, and in both cases stayed with their abusers for a long time.

Most people may not even know how they got where they are. If the solution was easy, I'm sure people in abusive relationships would change things early on.

So I mostly listen, offering emotional support, but if a friend should want something more I'm there in a flash. I accompanied a friend to help her collect her things when she wanted to leave her husband who was a drug addict. I did so with trepidation, but she clearly needed and asked for the support. Luckily it worked out in the end, and the confrontation, while difficult, ended peacefully.

In this latest situation, a guy friend, who is a recovering alcoholic, recommended an intervention for the husband, but the wife rejected the idea because of who her husband is in his community, and how it would affect his job...I think she's just not ready to make the change, and so I listen and hope I don't someday regret not trying to do more...

[mj-hi-yah]

Kacey I agree with you on so many things...I like your list of ways to help, with some important things to keep in mind.:asian: I'm glad you were able to change your situation. I understand about how you could get tired of hearing the "Don't you wish you had done it sooner? type thing." Why do people feel the need to express such things?

[sgtmac_46]

As a police officer, i've found the stereotypical 'Man beats woman, she submits' to be the exception rather than the rule. While this does happen, and the law is designed around it, it is, thankfully, increasingly rarer than we are lead to believe.

More typical, in my experience, is this scenario:

Sometimes man gets physically violent with woman when angry, sometimes the same woman gets physical violent with man when angry. It's a continual relationship back and forth cycle, and is often fueled by relationship problems. I find money issues tend to increase the likelyhood of this kind of back and forth violence. Alcohol abuse, likewise, tends to create a stronger environment for this kind of relationship violence.

I'll further add that this type of back and forth minor level violence accounts for the vast majority of domestic violence calls I and other officers respond to. Furthermore, in those situations, contrary to the stereotypical 'burning bed' abuse situations, there isn't usually a clear cut 'victim'.

I'll also note, when the story gets told later by one of the active participants in the event, they portrary themselves as 'entirely innocent' victims of the situation, rather than active, and aggressive participants. Many tend to 'embellish' and alter their particular role in the event.

An anecdotal analogy to illustrate my point. I recently worked a situation where a woman got intoxicated, and started yelling and screaming at her boyfriend, and his teenage son (along with her son's guests). The woman was obviously out of control, and she became physically violent with the man and his son, scratched and bit the man.

He subsequently picked her up and physically threw her out of his apartment, in the process he struck her in the face, causing her to have a bruise on her head. Also, some of her hair got pulled out in the process. She has a big knot on her head from a punch, he had scratches on his arms and a bite mark.

Both portrayed themselves as the victims. Both told versions of the story that were, in essence true. However, both left out their own violent acts, and eccentuated the violent acts of the other.

Now, Missouri state law mandates (almost) that in cases where physical violence is present, we arrest the 'primary physical aggressor' (the law is clear to state that this is distinct from 'first aggressor'). Pick out the primary physical aggressor in the above scenario.

Another anecdote. I have a habit of waiting outside the door when called to a domestic violence call for a few moments before knocking. First, I listen for alarm sounding words such as 'Put the gun down!'.

In addition, however, I find it helpful to discover who, is in fact, creating the situation. People are more honest when they think no one else is listening to their diatribe. They tend to lie after I show up.

In one situation, I responded to a call of a domestic disturbance, and the living room window was beside the front door.

Before knocking, however, I observed that the female was standing in front of a male, who was seated on the couch with his arms crossed, obviously trying to ignore this female, who was inches from his face, yelling at the top of her lungs. It was obvious he was a passive participant in this incident, and I watched for a couple of minutes, until she began to get violent and slap him.

At that time I knocked on the door. The female, who obviously thought I had just arrived, began to weave a tale of abuse and woe that would have sounded so convincing....had I not observed the previous 2 minutes myself. After listening to her story, I confronted her with what I had seen. She was stunned, and acknowledged that she had just been angry with her husband, and had not, in fact, been assaulted.

All of the above is not to say that domestic violence is not a HUGE social problem.....it certainly is. It's also not to say that some women aren't in serious physical danger from seriously abusive husbands and boyfriends, they are.

However, the problem is far larger and more complex than simply prosecuting someone who slaps their spouse or house mate. Right now we've built a system around the worst case scenario of abuse. In the mean time, however, we are prosecuting men (and women) in the criminal justice system for involvement in ongoing small-scale relationship disputes that are often back and forth situations.

Further complicating the situation are Ex Parte and protection orders. Well intentioned though they are, they are more often than not abused. Now, many attorneys 'suggest' Protection Orders will help a couple who is divorcing, get an advantage in a child custody dispute. Often times, one spouse (usually the woman, but not always) will 'allege' abuse simply to gain such an advantage in court.

The repercussions on an innocent person who is placed under a Protective Order is HUGE. If you are in a job where you have to carry a firearm, for example, you will be unable to continue that job while under the order, and will likely lose your job. To say nothing of the stigma of being accused of domestic violence, with little recourse, even if the courts ultimately find the issue without merit and rescind the court order. The best you get is 'good luck buddy'. You have absolutely no recourse against someone who brings a false allegation against you and, in effect, lies to abtain a court order.

In fact, I know of a Missouri State Water Patrol officer who stopped and arrested a woman for a criminal violation. Two weeks later she went to the court house, with her father (A notorious local miscreant skilled in the ways of court manipulation) and filed a request for an Ex Parte order of Protection claiming that the MSWP officer was 'stalking her'. She was granted a temporary order, and the MSWP subsequently suspended the officer (per federal law) until the situation was resolved.

The court subsequently found the issue completely without any sort of merit, and rescinded the order, the officer was reinstated (after missing several days of work). The consequences for the woman falsely making the claim? Absolutely nothing.

In the positive, however, aggressive domestic violence enforcement continues to reduce the numbers of serious domestic violence situations. It, however, continues to be a double-edged sword.

[Jonathan Randall]

I was a victim of domestic violence. I'm at the library right now and will post more about my feelings on this when my home computer is up, but ... the sheer humiliation and dehumanization is incredible. I did leave when things finally became life-threatening after I lost many friends, the hope of my relatives and the kindness of just about anyone else who was left. Shelters were full - waiting list. My children were 11 months old and 4 years old, oldest one disabled. Take that onto the street? I don't think so.

One thing I can tell you is that "just making that decision" seems MUCH harder on the other side of that coin. I'm glad to be out and will NEVER tolerate that again.

Yes, it is much harder. Since I've had a family member on that side of the coin, I understand how difficult it is to manage and escape the situation. It would be hard to describe how angry I was when I heard one well known self-protection expert say that a battered wife is a victim once - and a volunteer the second time because she did not leave. Try leaving with several small children, no money, no driver's license and having been cut off over the years from your old friends.

I will take the plunge and say that when I was a freshman in high school I was a male physically abused in a relationship (twice, once pushed, the other time backfisted followed by a sidekick). My girlfriend was a year older than I was and very pretty, smart, well educated a martial artist - and also an abused child. She was always terrified of getting her father angry because he'd beat her silly with a belt. So abuse IS A CYCLE.

Now, of course, I would not allow that to happen. However, I recognize that she was very disturbed and most of her trouble was not of her making. That didn't give her the right to get physical with me (I was brown belt level and she was second black), but twenty years later it is more understandable. If I could go back in time, I would have used my now adult experience to have gotten HER help.

[Jonathan Randall]

As a police officer, i've found the stereotypical 'Man beats woman, she submits' to be the exception rather than the rule. While this does happen, and the law is designed around it, it is far rarer than we are lead to believe.

More typical, in my experience, is this scenario:

Sometimes man gets physically violent with woman when angry, sometimes the same woman gets physical violent with man when angry. It's a continual relationship back and forth cycle.

I'll further add that this type of back and forth minor level violence accounts for the vast majority of domestic violence calls I and other officers respond to. Furthermore, in those situations, contrary to the stereotypical 'burning bed' abuse situations, there isn't usually a clear cut 'victim'.

I had an apartment upstairs from the sort of scenario you describe and it was really hard to tell WHO was worse. Not who got arrested - it was always the guy. However, and this is the sad part, both were incredibly verbally abusive to their toddler boy - to the extent that I called CPS.

I also think that times have changed so much since the 1950's and 60's that what was once stereotypical - the man feels the right to hit his wife and does - has changed to the greyer situation you have described.

However, jerk man beats wife is a very real phenomenon and hell for the women in that situation, as I'm sure you'll agree.

[sgtmac_46]

I had an apartment upstairs from the sort of scenario you describe and it was really hard to tell WHO was worse. Not who got arrested - it was always the guy. However, and this is the sad part, both were incredibly verbally abusive to their toddler boy - to the extent that I called CPS.

I also think that times have changed so much since the 1950's and 60's that what was once stereotypical - the man feels the right to hit his wife and does - has changed to the greyer situation you have described.

However, jerk man beats wife is a very real phenomenon and hell for the women in that situation, as I'm sure you'll agree. Oh, I agree completely that the stereotypical phenomenon does exist. What's more, I derive a real personal sense of pleasure in arresting the stereotypical abuser.

It's usually easy to spot a real abuser. They tend to be violently angry one minute, and extremely manipulative the next. When they end up in my custody, they tend to try and manipulate and rationalize at first. When they realize that isn't working, they become angry and threatening toward me. When that, again doesn't work, they become sullen and self-pitying.

What's even more, often they are trying to plead with their wives and girlfriends to 'save them' when they are being arrested. I don't know how many times i've taken a man to jail, with him yelling to his wife or girlfriend, in my backseat, 'I LOVE YOU BABY!!!'.

I've also been witness to a new and growing phenomenon.... Lesbian domestic violence. I don't say this in a humorous way, but i've been witness to some extremly violent and stereotypical 'Male assault/female victim' scenarios being played out among lesbians lately. I've noticed some real violence/control issues among several local couples. I think this phenomenon merits some real studies. I've also seen some serious stalking issues among lesbians as well.

Oddly, I haven't seen the same type of behavior among male homosexual partners, though i'm sure they do occur from time to time. It could be that men are less likely to call the police on their partners, or to simply view it as part of the relationship. Or, perhaps male homosexuals don't, as a rule, feel the need to be as controlling in the relationship. I don't know.

[Raewyn]

I wish to share an experience.

I was married to the guy for 11 years, and did not realise I was in an abusive relationship for quite a long time. Some would perceive me as a strong person, but I dont think I was stong enough. Now, when I look back I feel sometimes like an idiot, because I wasted 11 years of my life with this jerk, how could I have been so stupid.

It all started with the verbal abuse. Over a period of time my self confidence and self esteem took a dramatic turn down hill. Just little comments like. "Gee your getting fat, you never looked like that when I first met you", or comments like :you need to loose weight, your butt is getting too big". This was constant. I would say something, or do something that was not too his liking and he would not talk to me for a week, he would give me the cold shoulder, and then when he finally would talk to me he would say to me "You have finally learned your lesson", and then he would give me a pen and paper and make a list of the things I had done or said wrong. He used to tell me I had a big chip on my shoulder and he would also say that he was turning me into a better person so that my next boyfriend would benefit from all his teachings, and that he was wondering why he was even bothering.
I soon started to question myself and who I was. I didnt know who I was. My self esteem was at an all time low, I felt I couldnt survive without him. I started to think maybe there is something wrong with me and because he was 12 years old than me, he obviously knew what he was talking about.
He was a selfish lover, and into alot of weird stuff which he made me do, and I did it because it made him happy and my life with him bearable. It was like, my life revolved around him and his feelings, I was very careful with what I said and what I did.
He hardly held down a full time job. I was the main earner, and when I fell pregnant I had two weeks off work before I went back to work again. He stayed home and looked after my son.
This was when the beatings began, and when he used to force himself upon me when I did not want it. Even then I thought the problem was me and I was at fault. When I used to hang out with my friends we used to talk about people in abusive realtionships, and here I was saying to them why women just dont leave. and here I was in one!!!!! I feel like such a hypocrite now!. It wasnt until my son started to get older and he started the verbal abusive with him, is when things started to fall into place. he used to drink away all my wages, and I used to have to ring up the landlord and make excuses to him as to why I couldnt pay the rent that week ( the landlord told me later he thought i was on drugs!). My weight fell from 65 kgs to 55 kgs (and yet I was still too fat). One day he gives my 4 year old son a pocket knife to play with as according to him he needed to make a man out of him and did not want my son to be a mummies boy. My son then promptly goes round to the neighbours to show them this knife and was apparently pretending to cut everybody. This gets back to my ex husband and he then in turn gives my son a beating. he then went out that night, got done for drinking and driving and lost his licence. He came home and beat the living crap out of me.
I used to lie awake at nights trying to plan what I would do if I kicked him out and how I would live. It wasnt until a girl started at work, and we got on really well, is when i opened up to her and told her my problems. she told me that she would move in if I kicked him out. At that time in my life, I had no friends as he had alienated them from me, and my best friend was not talking to me.
I then told him I didnt love him anymore and I wanted him out. I borrowed the work truck and helped him move into his own flat, which my parents had paid the lease for. (they told me it was worth paying the money to get him out of my life). My friend from work moved in and I havnt looked back since. I have left out alot of stuff as there is so much more.
But I think, well for me, it was the constant picking on me, always finding fault with me, it definatley was self esteem that kept me there cause I had none. At work I could not even talk to the boss's wife. I used to stutter all the time. im not as bad now.

I find it hard to actually write about this stuff like this and to try and get my point accross. It doesnt really seem like much as I am sure that there are people out there in worse situations than what I experienced. But at the end of the day verbal and physical abuse is all the same, effects us all the same, and I can now understand why people in those sorts of relationships dont leave, as it is never as simple as that!

[Jonathan Randall]

I wish to share an experience.

I was married to the guy for 11 years, and did not realise I was in an abusive relationship for quite a long time. Some would perceive me as a strong person, but I dont think I was stong enough. Now, when I look back I feel sometimes like an idiot, because I wasted 11 years of my life with this jerk, how could I have been so stupid.

It all started with the verbal abuse. Over a period of time my self confidence and self esteem took a dramatic turn down hill. Just little comments like. "Gee your getting fat, you never looked like that when I first met you", or comments like :you need to loose weight, your butt is getting too big". This was constant. I would say something, or do something that was not too his liking and he would not talk to me for a week, he would give me the cold shoulder, and then when he finally would talk to me he would say to me "You have finally learned your lesson", and then he would give me a pen and paper and make a list of the things I had done or said wrong. He used to tell me I had a big chip on my shoulder and he would also say that he was turning me into a better person so that my next boyfriend would benefit from all his teachings, and that he was wondering why he was even bothering.
I soon started to question myself and who I was. I didnt know who I was. My self esteem was at an all time low, I felt I couldnt survive without him. I started to think maybe there is something wrong with me and because he was 12 years old than me, he obviously knew what he was talking about.
He was a selfish lover, and into alot of weird stuff which he made me do, and I did it because it made him happy and my life with him bearable. It was like, my life revolved around him and his feelings, I was very careful with what I said and what I did.
He hardly held down a full time job. I was the main earner, and when I fell pregnant I had two weeks off work before I went back to work again. He stayed home and looked after my son.
This was when the beatings began, and when he used to force himself upon me when I did not want it. Even then I thought the problem was me and I was at fault. When I used to hang out with my friends we used to talk about people in abusive realtionships, and here I was saying to them why women just dont leave. and here I was in one!!!!! I feel like such a hypocrite now!. It wasnt until my son started to get older and he started the verbal abusive with him, is when things started to fall into place. he used to drink away all my wages, and I used to have to ring up the landlord and make excuses to him as to why I couldnt pay the rent that week ( the landlord told me later he thought i was on drugs!). My weight fell from 65 kgs to 55 kgs (and yet I was still too fat). One day he gives my 4 year old son a pocket knife to play with as according to him he needed to make a man out of him and did not want my son to be a mummies boy. My son then promptly goes round to the neighbours to show them this knife and was apparently pretending to cut everybody. This gets back to my ex husband and he then in turn gives my son a beating. he then went out that night, got done for drinking and driving and lost his licence. He came home and beat the living crap out of me.
I used to lie awake at nights trying to plan what I would do if I kicked him out and how I would live. It wasnt until a girl started at work, and we got on really well, is when i opened up to her and told her my problems. she told me that she would move in if I kicked him out. At that time in my life, I had no friends as he had alienated them from me, and my best friend was not talking to me.
I then told him I didnt love him anymore and I wanted him out. I borrowed the work truck and helped him move into his own flat, which my parents had paid the lease for. (they told me it was worth paying the money to get him out of my life). My friend from work moved in and I havnt looked back since. I have left out alot of stuff as there is so much more.
But I think, well for me, it was the constant picking on me, always finding fault with me, it definatley was self esteem that kept me there cause I had none. At work I could not even talk to the boss's wife. I used to stutter all the time. im not as bad now.

I find it hard to actually write about this stuff like this and to try and get my point accross. It doesnt really seem like much as I am sure that there are people out there in worse situations than what I experienced. But at the end of the day verbal and physical abuse is all the same, effects us all the same, and I can now understand why people in those sorts of relationships dont leave, as it is never as simple as that!

I am very sorry for what you went through, Raewyn. Sometimes, when I am in a room, I will turn to a younger friend and say: if you knew what some of these people had done, it would suprise you, if you knew what some of these people had been through, it would also suprise you. Thank you for sharing your experience.

[Jonathan Randall]

I will take the plunge and say that when I was a freshman in high school I was a male physically abused in a relationship (twice, once pushed, the other time backfisted followed by a sidekick). My girlfriend was a year older than I was and very pretty, smart, well educated a martial artist - and also an abused child. She was always terrified of getting her father angry because he'd beat her silly with a belt. So abuse IS A CYCLE.

Now, of course, I would not allow that to happen. However, I recognize that she was very disturbed and most of her trouble was not of her making. That didn't give her the right to get physical with me (I was brown belt level and she was second black), but twenty years later it is more understandable. If I could go back in time, I would have used my now adult experience to have gotten HER help.

I should add, and please be soft on her any posters, that she took her own life not long after these events. I would trade anything to be able to go back in time to help her. I came from an abusive family as well and know how much it screws you up. The passing of 23 years does not diminish the pain. :asian:

In loving memory:

Rachel Lynn --------
1966-1983

Last name edited for privacy; but Rachel, I would trade this skill for just five minutes with you shopping at Gemco, going to the library or practicing Shotokan or just sitting on the grass talking:

http://www.martialtalk.com/gallery/index.php?cat=15725

[Raewyn]

I also forgot to mention mental abuse which is what all people have to try and deal with in abusive relationships.

[evenflow1121]

What made him change that relationship do you think?


That is a good question, believe it or not she broke it off with him. She used him for a good two years, got all that she wanted and kicked him to the curve and moved on quite fast, some people are like that they simply dont care they dont appreciate what they have found, she I guarantee that girl can go through the whole eart three times around and wont find a dude like that, but hey some people just need life lessons I guess. Interestingly enough it got to a point that no one wanted to hang out with him, not me or any one else he knew cause he just kept going back to this. But when it happenned and the relationship finally fell (like there was one to begin with), we supported him, he eventually found a nice girl taht appreciates what he does and they are getting married. As for his ex, well she is still getting played and running around like hen with her head cut off, typical pre madonna. Good lesson though for everyone I guess, its always best to think with your head and not your heart, though easier said than done. I never saw her strike my friend, though it would not surprise me given that relationship, but the mental abuse that dude suffered, I mean no one should ever have to do through that.

[mj-hi-yah]

Wow some really fantastic posts. There's so much to respond to. First sgtmac_46 thank you for sharing your experience and insight with us! :asian: I imagine in many cases the abuse can be mutual. I do know a couple where this is the case. This couple had been preparing to blend their families. The teenagers caused a lot of friction for them, and got involved in the violence. A week before their planned wedding, a very violent fight ensued between one of the teens and her soon to be step-mom. The girl bit the woman and the woman pushed the girl down, and then the future husband called the police on his bride to be...it was such a mess and needless to say they called off the wedding, but ironically they are still all living together...The thing is both parents were drinking heavily that night! I think substance abuse has a lot to do with domestic violence.

In some cases when there is substance abuse by one party only, the, as you say, stereotypical abuse is more likely I think. In the relationship that I first brought up here, it is only when under the influence of alcohol that the violence occurs, this is why in daily life most people would be shocked to find out that this person is an abusive husband. He is what I would call a "functioning alcoholic". He is liked by many and a professional in his daily life, and somehow manages to function very well in the day. It is usually in the evening, when he lets loose, which is maybe 3 or more nights a week, that he can become accusatory, unreasonable, paranoid, and sometimes physically abusive. I have witnessed him many times going to great lengths to position himself around the acquisition of more alcohol. Some nights he does not come home at all, because he is in the local bar drinking the night away. When the violence occurs, he is either too ashamed to admit it the next day, or he blacks out, but he oddly goes on as if nothing tumultuous ever happened the night before. I encouraged my friend to videotape some of these episodes so he could in his sobriety see how he behaves in his drunken state.

Another very good point point that sgtmac_46 brings up is that this is not exclusive to heterosexual couples.

Jonathan thank you for sharing your important and painful story. That portrait is beautiful! Thank you :asian:

Raewyn I want to thank you for opening up here like that. Your story sheds a lot of light on how it must feel to be in this type of situation. I am so glad that you found the strength to make the changes for you and for your son! I am also happy that you could accept your friend's and family's help. Yours is a story of bravery, and self evolvement, and while it was difficult for you to write it, I believe that it can help others. I really appreciate your sharing with us! You give me hope for my friend and I will be sure to always offer my help to her. :asian:

evenflow1121 using head over heart is a lesson for us all!

MJ :asian:

[Raewyn]

Raewyn I want to thank you for opening up here like that. Your story sheds a lot of light on how it must feel to be in this type of situation. I am so glad that you found the strength to make the changes for you and for your son! I am also happy that you could accept your friend's and family's help. Yours is a story of bravery, and self evolvement, and while it was difficult for you to write it, I believe that it can help others. I really appreciate your sharing with us! You give me hope for my friend and I will be sure to always offer my help to her. :asian:


MJ :asian:


It will be hard having to sit back and watch, but your friend will appreciate the support you will give her. All you can do is offer advice and be there, she will come around eventually when enough is enough, everybody has a breaking point sooner or later, unfortunaltey for me and some people it was way to later!

[shesulsa]

Well, I was extremely sheltered and quite naive when I married the first time. There were some red flags before we married which I should have paid far more attention to. But ... how can you when you just don't know?

I think there is a general expectation that everyone has a good dose of "common sense" and lead common lives and that the normal brain just knows the difference between what is 'typical' or 'right' and what is 'atypical' or 'wrong' and nothing could be farther from the truth.

People generally live what they know.

What I knew was constant belittlement, violent outbursts, irrational arguments, feelings of inadequacy, humiliation and pain. This is what normal was for me and is, I think, for many people in abusive situations, be it domestic violence or childhood abuse or whatever. So when I started dating someone who randomly trashed me in general was 'normal.' It pissed me off and I complained to my friends and wondered what the heck I could do about it which, of course, fell upon deaf ears and shrugs.

I was also pushed into situations I really didn't want to be in and was cheated on. The manipulation was incredible ... as soon as I thought he was a monster, he'd back down and get terribly depressed and talk of suicide. When he started trying to rationalize taking us with him in death, I knew I had to get out - but where? The shelters were full, the streets are dangerous. None of my friends would put me up - they were afraid of him coming to get me at their homes. So I tried to put money away and made sure we spent as little time in the same location with him as possible. He always found the money.

After being told for the umpteenth time that I was a crappy wife, I turned the tables and informed him that since he was such a fabulous model of marital treatment, I would from that moment forward emulate his treatment of me upon him. He thanked me then. The next three months would prove to untie the final knots. Countless arguments, numerous threats on my life and on the lives on our children until one morning, I was lying in bed, nursing our daughter when he mounted me and restrained my head and my free arm. He moved my arm to under his leg, turned my head to reveal my left temple and drew back for a heel palm. I knew what he was about to do - I managed to free my other arm and tore into the flesh on his arm. Our daughter was in my arms screaming. He finally got off and I took the children and put them in the car and locked them in. I ran in to grab the diaper bag and there he was with a butcher knife. He handed it to me handle first.

I knew that if I took him up on his offer, I'd likely never see my children again, but that if I did not take the knife away from him that I would die that night. I got the knife away, threw it in the sink and grabbed a few things on my way out the door - he just stood there. I never went back to him. There's more to the story - like a judge who lifted the restraining order so he could freely visit the children at school without supervision, and police officers who had to be convinced that he needed to be arrested after repeatedly violating the restraining order (thank goodness they arrived before anyone got hurt), former in-laws who thought I was evil, friends who were won over by him because none of his four wives understood him at all, etcetera.

I am EXTREMELY LUCKY. I have met women with scars, missing teeth. I know a guy or two who went to jail bruised and bleeding, victims of abuse themselves.

And then there are those who cry "abuse" at the slightest twitch or failure to comply with their demands. They piss me off.

It took me a while to really understand all the things I bought into that were ruses and manipulation. And it's embarrassing to admit that, but important for others to understand when we consider the problem of an abused spouse of either gender.

[Jonathan Randall]

Well, I was extremely sheltered and quite naive when I married the first time. There were some red flags before we married which I should have paid far more attention to. But ... how can you when you just don't know?

I think there is a general expectation that everyone has a good dose of "common sense" and lead common lives and that the normal brain just knows the difference between what is 'typical' or 'right' and what is 'atypical' or 'wrong' and nothing could be farther from the truth.

People generally live what they know.

What I knew was constant belittlement, violent outbursts, irrational arguments, feelings of inadequacy, humiliation and pain. This is what normal was for me and is, I think, for many people in abusive situations, be it domestic violence or childhood abuse or whatever. So when I started dating someone who randomly trashed me in general was 'normal.' It pissed me off and I complained to my friends and wondered what the heck I could do about it which, of course, fell upon deaf ears and shrugs.

I was also pushed into situations I really didn't want to be in and was cheated on. The manipulation was incredible ... as soon as I thought he was a monster, he'd back down and get terribly depressed and talk of suicide. When he started trying to rationalize taking us with him in death, I knew I had to get out - but where? The shelters were full, the streets are dangerous. None of my friends would put me up - they were afraid of him coming to get me at their homes. So I tried to put money away and made sure we spent as little time in the same location with him as possible. He always found the money.

After being told for the umpteenth time that I was a crappy wife, I turned the tables and informed him that since he was such a fabulous model of marital treatment, I would from that moment forward emulate his treatment of me upon him. He thanked me then. The next three months would prove to untie the final knots. Countless arguments, numerous threats on my life and on the lives on our children until one morning, I was lying in bed, nursing our daughter when he mounted me and restrained my head and my free arm. He moved my arm to under his leg, turned my head to reveal my left temple and drew back for a heel palm. I knew what he was about to do - I managed to free my other arm and tore into the flesh on his arm. Our daughter was in my arms screaming. He finally got off and I took the children and put them in the car and locked them in. I ran in to grab the diaper bag and there he was with a butcher knife. He handed it to me handle first.

I knew that if I took him up on his offer, I'd likely never see my children again, but that if I did not take the knife away from him that I would die that night. I got the knife away, threw it in the sink and grabbed a few things on my way out the door - he just stood there. I never went back to him. There's more to the story - like a judge who lifted the restraining order so he could freely visit the children at school without supervision, and police officers who had to be convinced that he needed to be arrested after repeatedly violating the restraining order (thank goodness they arrived before anyone got hurt), former in-laws who thought I was evil, friends who were won over by him because none of his four wives understood him at all, etcetera.

I am EXTREMELY LUCKY. I have met women with scars, missing teeth. I know a guy or two who went to jail bruised and bleeding, victims of abuse themselves.

And then there are those who cry "abuse" at the slightest twitch or failure to comply with their demands. They piss me off.

It took me a while to really understand all the things I bought into that were ruses and manipulation. And it's embarrassing to admit that, but important for others to understand when we consider the problem of an abused spouse of either gender.

I'm very sorry to hear that you went through this. However, I think you have emerged a stronger and wiser person from it and I think that you should seriously consider writing a book on this and related subjects. Your threads on Missing Persons and posts on information defense, etc. lead me to believe that you could contribute some real accurate and streetwise information.

[matt.m]

You know I have always believed whole heartedly that if you are an abuser you need an attitude adjustment. A few years ago my wife and I were getting into our car to go to the mall. She wanted to go to girlie land for perfume and make up or something. Anyway we lived in an apartment complex with a bunch of other college students.

Well a woman came barreling out of a door sobbing and holding her hand over her eye. The boyfriend had kicked her butt. Well I confronted him. The confrontation ended with him on the business end of a sweeping hip throw.

The girl left that weekend, her and her parents gave me a thank you card. I gave the money that was inside of it back and told her to get groceries with it.

I hate people that beat on others. It seems like people that do that do it for the sick fun they think it is.

[donna]

When you have a violent parent that beats their children, that too carrys over to adulthood. Often the child will accept the same sort of abuse from their partner or think that verbal abuse is acceptable.
I get so upset when I see parents verbally and physically abusing their children, it makes me feel sick.
I have only now ,at 45, got to the stage where I have the courage to speak out against my husband and challenge his decisions, because of the physical and emotional abuse I suffered as a child.
He is a bully too, verbally, and he dosnt like the fact that I am challenging his opinions.
He dosnt realise he is driving his children and me away. I feel guilty that I havent been strong enough to challenge him before now and I worry about how it has affected my children.

[Shaolinwind]

When you have a violent parent that beats their children, that too carrys over to adulthood. Often the child will accept the same sort of abuse from their partner or think that verbal abuse is acceptable.
I get so upset when I see parents verbally and physically abusing their children, it makes me feel sick.
I have only now ,at 45, got to the stage where I have the courage to speak out against my husband and challenge his decisions, because of the physical and emotional abuse I suffered as a child.
He is a bully too, verbally, and he dosnt like the fact that I am challenging his opinions.
He dosnt realise he is driving his children and me away. I feel guilty that I havent been strong enough to challenge him before now and I worry about how it has affected my children.

Heavy man, real heavy.. Get him some anger management help.

[MA-Caver]

What I find really sad here... is that it's referred to as a "Touchy Subject" (all due respects to Tess and her choice of words... which are apt).
I'm glad to see those coming forth and sharing their stories and glad even more so that they've managed to get on with their lives.
One of the things I learned from my father (by watching) was his interaction with my mother. My father is a large imposing figure and my mother average in size and naturally smaller than he. I've seen them argue but it was a 50/50 argument and the tone was one of quiet listening and waiting til the other is through. Mostly the best lesson I learned was: I never saw (or known) my father hitting my mother... ever! Children learn by examples.
My father also once told me: "A man has NO reason to hit a woman."
Wisdom that I hold true to this day. (excepting in a MA classroom/dojo :D )
Wish a lot of men had fathers like mine. It'd make it a lot easier on me when I meet someone attractive and they're not worried about me "going off on them" because their last husband/boyfriend did. Those stories I've heard a lot.