Self Defence for women is a waste of time

[kenposikh]

Thought that might get you looking

Seriously though how do people here feel about these so called 6 to 12 week courses in self defence.

Is it a waste of money as in my humble opinion 6 months down the line most of it is forgotten and very little of it ihas become instinctive.

[Phil Elmore]

Guess nobody had better try, then.

Anyone who wants to learn to defend themselves will retain something from such a course. A defeatist attitude is what I would consider a waste of time.

[KenpoTess]

I think there's many variables to be said about the short Self defense courses.

A. How they are taught? (with reality attacks in mind, or just your basic defensive techniques)

B. Who is doing the teaching? (Someone who knows their 'stuff' or someone else who took the same course and hung out a shingle).

C. The Motivation for taking the course by the student. ( Why are they there? To become invincible? To get the basics and go further into training elsewhere? etc. )

I'm sure the list goes on..

Everyone has a different style of learning, Some can pick things up and retain them, others need so much repetition before they can grasp the concept. Some are visual learners, others audio, others physical, so again..depends on how the course is taught. A good teacher incorporates all ways of learning to their students.
Handouts, Speaking and demonstration.

Would I take a short term defense class in another life time without MA's? I doubt it, as I never had the need or interest in it before. But I'm sure it has it's merits for some women :)

Tess

[arnisador]

Thew news article cited in this thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10519) is worth reading in this regard.

My wife had a self-defense segment in high school. All she remembers is "Get your hands up in front of you" but she still has that and still throws up a decent shield of forearms when she talks about it. It isn't much--but it's a start.

I don't think anyone walks out of one of these with a decent front kick, but they may retain general self-defense tips ("Look in the back seat of the car before getting in") and an improved willingness to fight back, and maybe a simple idea--as opposed to a real technique--like gouging the eyes or something. Plus, a certain percentage of them will follow-up with more martial arts training.

So, I share some of your pessimism but not all of it. If the course talks about strategies as well as techniques, there's a reasonable chance of taking something away from it.

[kenposikh]

Before people start thinking that I believe that women shouldn't do self defence I don't.

I am trying to start a discussion as to whether these short ter classes are beneficial if anyone has had any experience of them.

thanks

Amrik

[kenposikh]

Originally posted by KenpoTess
I think there's many variables to be said about the short Self defense courses.

A. How they are taught? (with reality attacks in mind, or just your basic defensive techniques)

B. Who is doing the teaching? (Someone who knows their 'stuff' or someone else who took the same course and hung out a shingle).

C. The Motivation for taking the course by the student. ( Why are they there? To become invincible? To get the basics and go further into training elsewhere? etc. )

I'm sure the list goes on..

Everyone has a different style of learning, Some can pick things up and retain them, others need so much repetition before they can grasp the concept. Some are visual learners, others audio, others physical, so again..depends on how the course is taught. A good teacher incorporates all ways of learning to their students.
Handouts, Speaking and demonstration.

Would I take a short term defense class in another life time without MA's? I doubt it, as I never had the need or interest in it before. But I'm sure it has it's merits for some women :)

Tess

Well thought out ther but I didn't expect anything else:D

[lvwhitebir]

To me, pure self-defense courses should offer material that is very easy to learn and memorize. So much so that the student should be able to apply it after leaving the session in which it's taught.

The problem with a lot of self-defense classes is that they are too complicated. They have complicated joint locks or difficult strikes and kicks. It's not hard to teach an elbow strike, heel palm to the nose, or a slap and the move should be retained forever.

On the other hand, there is also a misconception by the students of these courses that once you complete the course you're done. They figure they'll be able to apply it all later, no matter what. Well, the hardest part of the training, IMO, is the application of the techniques in scenario training. The student has to learn how to apply it in a "hostile" environment and should revisit this portion often.

So... at my school, I teach a self-defense course that is 12-weeks long, that repeats. In the 12 weeks, they'll cover a variety of escapes and strikes, going through contact scenarios with a padded attacker. At the end of the 12 weeks, we repeat the classes again, allowing the student to gain even more experience. The student pays a low monthly rate, we have no belts, no fancy moves, and they wear what they want.

If they want to go into the traditional material, I have additional classes for that and they're allowed and encouraged to take both.

WhiteBirch

[loki09789]

I agree that the effectiveness of a mini course in SD depends greatly on the content.

I have taught a few of these to accomplish two things not in order of importance:

1. promotion of my program at the time - yes I had to pay the rent.

2. community awareness/service

Basically the techniques I chose weren't really techniques as much as strategies. "Keep your hands up" I saw that and loved it. That was the first thing I taught for techniques. Then it was basic heel hand strikes/hammer fists to the nose, throat and eye region along with the "stomp on the soft parts" techniques for the lower body. I noticed that by telling them to stomp on the knee, foot, groin... they didn't need to be told side kick, front kick, it was just putting the closest weapon on the closest target.

No kimono grab or twin dragons or anything like that - just basic fundamental mechanics.

Once that was engrained, we moved on to scenarios (chokes, grabs...) and gradually built up the intensity until these women didn't freak out when you grabbed them really hard and simulated a striking attack or a bear hug/choke attack. They just responded instinctually and automatically.


I think the biggest component is anything that breaks through the helplessness that most women/statistical victims feel. Instilling the belief and experience that they can survive and repell an attack is probably the most important thing with the limited time.

Paul Martin

[MJS]

I agree with the people that said that it is the content of what is taught, because that is very true. Alot of the so called "Womens SD courses" are teaching things, that IMO, will get them hurt. Doing a wrist lock or finger lock is something that I have seen taught and I'm not impressed. Considering that everybody is different when it comes to pain tolerance, and also that you really need to get the lock just right for it to work. I guess the people teaching this are assuming that the mugger is just going to be standing there?

Teaching them some effective strikes and kicks, and then having them try them, by putting them into a "mugging" situation. A friend of mine teaches a SD course for women. He also has a padded suit that one of his Inst wears so that the women can go all out with the skills that they learned. By putting them into a stressfull situation, they will learn how to react under pressure.

Mike

[Michael Billings]

Good job! I am in the midst of a 6-week Women's Self-Defense seminar now. I only do them occassionally, and by demand. Lots of Knees & Elbows. Focus is on targetd (eyes, throat, groin ... and a few more, like knees and hinge of the jaw).

Lots of kicking sheilds and big guys holding them. But my focus on elbows is 2-fold. First and primarily as strikes, then secondarily as "release" moves. Upward against 2 handed wrist grab, Inward, same sided wrist grab, etc. Then "step on their knee and run". I also teach stomps and a "stomp to the knee" or side thrust kick, all the way through the knee. There is some rebounding, because I teach knees and elbows until it is safe to leave and I use a front to back switch Mr. LaBounty teaches to continuously throw knees.

Repetitive patterns with contact I think is the key. I "introduce" release moves against chokes (front, back, headlock), hair grabs (front & pony tail), etc. and work on the Muay Thai roundhouse, instead of the Kenpo one. This is similar to the downward looping roundhouse in Repeating Mace, but to any available target ... and for that kick, the entire body is the target. We do lots of heel palms and claws also.

Some of the rape defense is uncomfortable at best, straddled with a knife at your throat, etc. The training for this would have to be practiced over, and over and over to be effective, so once again, I teach it, and stress they need to practice, but it is really just an intro to this. My main focus, in any position, eyes, throat, and groin ... step on their knee and run.

Whew ... long rant -

-MB

[Seig]

I agree Women's Self-Defense courses are a waste of time; IF the students and instructors do not have the proper attitude. I can't tell you how many times I have taught a woman a particular strike just to hear, "That's too brutal, I could never do that." That is the waste of time. Just like anything else, you have to prepare to succeed. Without the proper mindset, you are wasting your time.

[Zoran]

It's true that some of the physical defense taught can be lost over time. But, the primary focus of Women's SD should not be just the physical. The mental/psychological should the primary focus. Seig points out that there are women that feel some things are "too brutal" in their minds. Misconceptions such as those should be challenged.

I was assisting instruction in a Women's Defense class in DePaul University a couple of times. We asked the question, "Would you jam your finger into someone's eye if they were trying to kill your baby?" Every woman raised their hand. Yet when asked if they would do the same for themselves, less that half raised their hand, most of which were hesitant. So, is your life not worth protection?

Followed was a demo of various scenerios of self defense. Most of which included non physical interaction and awarness examples. We had only two physical demonstration. One was where the woman kicks some butt, the other was a violent re-enactment of a woman being assaulted for a prelude of rape. This was mostly used to shock the mind and get everybodies attention to the seriousness of the class.

The mental aspect of such a seminar or class should include mindset, awarness, attitude, eye contact, and various components of body language that can broadcast if you are a victim or not.

The physical aspect of defense should include very simple and easy to remember movements. Something that can be translated from every day natural movements.

For example;
*When we yell STOP, we usually raise our hand palm out. That can be converted to a palm strike.
*We've trained to insert a key into a very small key hole most of our lives. Imagine the eye as a very big keyhole.
*And other such translations. (For those EPAK people, look at one of the Infinite Insights book that uses every day movements as translation to kenpo strikes and blocks.)

[Ceicei]

Zoran, I like your comments.

- Ceicei

[Thetan]

Like many parents, mine were totally against their daughter taking any type of marital arts. Unfortunately, they never gave in and I had to wait way to long to finally begin formally training. What finally got me started was a 10-wk self defense course.

I could easily recognize that some of the things taught just wouldn't work as easily as the instructors said, but others would work beautifully. Rarely did we use pads to kick or hit. The instructors (3 of them) would put on padding and we got to hit them. I felt empowered to learn how to really defend myself. I had no illusion that I was going to learn all that I needed in such a short time. But man was it fun!

Two main things came to light during that course. One, was that my totally uncoordinated left hand could indeed hit with enough power to bend in the face shield of as Fist mask and make my attacker let go in a 2 - hand grab. The other was to give me the courage after a lifetime of "No you might get hurt" to start training. That was 13 years ago and I don't plan to ever stop.

[arnisador]

Well, that's a success story--it got you into the arts!

[kenposikh]

Originally posted by Thetan


Two main things came to light during that course. One, was that my totally uncoordinated left hand could indeed hit with enough power to bend in the face shield of as Fist mask and make my attacker let go in a 2 - hand grab. The other was to give me the courage after a lifetime of "No you might get hurt" to start training. That was 13 years ago and I don't plan to ever stop.

Well I can happily say that starting this thread has led to many thoughts and observations as well as success stories. THere is a place for self defence courses which can hopefully lead to studying the martial arts.

Thank you all for your responses.

[hardheadjarhead]

I posted something related to this in the thread "What would you teach?":

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11107&perpage=15&pagenumber=2


The problem with many of the techniques mentioned here, and advocated here, is that they often don't work in a self defense/rape scenario. They MIGHT work...but I'd suggest they would more than likely fail.

Knee kicks? Often when the attack is made the guy has come within arms reach and has grabbed the victim, unbalancing her. Hard to kick the knee when you're being driven backward or you've been pinned to a wall by the throat. Even in the rare "blitz" scenario where the attacker comes from a distance the woman is hitting a moving target.

Knees? See above. You might get one off to the groin. Might not. If you miss you now have a VERY enraged attacker.

Eye jabs? Great technique...I approve of it...for highly trained martial artists. We're talking a six to twelve week course here.

Heel palms? Elbows? How many of you find that when sparring you MISS? How many of the men here have been hit with glancing shots and found it hurt, but didn't nearly incapacitate? I've had women (and men) hit me with some of their best shots...squarely and with power...and I was able to keep going (and I'm not a big guy). A large attacker, floating in adrenalin, and possibly drugs, against a woman with nominal training might have it easier than I did.

Muay Thai round kicks? Two of the women in our Muay Thai program fight. The strongest one (and she is VERY strong) fought several rounds against a girl in California, kicked her repeatedly. The fight went the distance. How many shots did it take for Marco Ruas to take out the "Polar Bear" Paul Varlens?

My point is this: All of these techniques are GREAT for a martial artist, but lousy for a woman taking a short course in self defense. They simply don't have enough time to train the technique for the context they're going to be putting it in.

See my other thread for a description of what I advocate.

Another thing, folks...how many instructors out there actually study the dynamics of sexual assault? Do you know the profile of the typical attacker? How he works? How he sets up his victims? How does he think? Who does he target? Why does he target a specific woman?

A topic for another thread.

Regards,

Steve Scott

[MJS]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
[B]I posted something related to this in the thread "What would you teach?":

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11107&perpage=15&pagenumber=2


The problem with many of the techniques mentioned here, and advocated here, is that they often don't work in a self defense/rape scenario. They MIGHT work...but I'd suggest they would more than likely fail.

[quote]Knee kicks? Often when the attack is made the guy has come within arms reach and has grabbed the victim, unbalancing her. Hard to kick the knee when you're being driven backward or you've been pinned to a wall by the throat. Even in the rare "blitz" scenario where the attacker comes from a distance the woman is hitting a moving target.

True.


Knees? See above. You might get one off to the groin. Might not. If you miss you now have a VERY enraged attacker.

True again, but if the guy is that close then the odds of hitting the groin increase. Also, the idea is to do more than just 1.


Eye jabs? Great technique...I approve of it...for highly trained martial artists. We're talking a six to twelve week course here.

Gotta disagree. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to do an eye jab.


Heel palms? Elbows? How many of you find that when sparring you MISS? How many of the men here have been hit with glancing shots and found it hurt, but didn't nearly incapacitate? I've had women (and men) hit me with some of their best shots...squarely and with power...and I was able to keep going (and I'm not a big guy). A large attacker, floating in adrenalin, and possibly drugs, against a woman with nominal training might have it easier than I did.

IMO, alot of these moves are best done when the person is within arms reach, grabbing you, etc. Again the idea is repeated shots. Are you saying that you actually took multiple shots to your head with an elbow and you were not affected???


Muay Thai round kicks? Two of the women in our Muay Thai program fight. The strongest one (and she is VERY strong) fought several rounds against a girl in California, kicked her repeatedly. The fight went the distance. How many shots did it take for Marco Ruas to take out the "Polar Bear" Paul Varlens?

Too many details in this kick to teach to a beginner. A kick to the knee, stomp to the foot, etc. will get better results. Ruas also did foot stomps to Varlens, and he got a reaction!!!


My point is this: All of these techniques are GREAT for a martial artist, but lousy for a woman taking a short course in self defense. They simply don't have enough time to train the technique for the context they're going to be putting it in.

Not all of them are bad.


Another thing, folks...how many instructors out there actually study the dynamics of sexual assault? Do you know the profile of the typical attacker? How he works? How he sets up his victims? How does he think? Who does he target? Why does he target a specific woman?

One would hope that the Inst. would have done his homework. Than again, I'm sure that you do have those Inst out there that are just trying to make a $$ and dont care about what it is that they teach.

Mike

[Cruentus]

Read my post that I just put up on the link that Steve Scott provided above.

Just about every technique will not work if a woman is trying to "fight" a larger male, but many techniques may be useful in aiding an escape!

[MJS]

Originally posted by PAUL
Read my post that I just put up on the link that Steve Scott provided above.

Just about every technique will not work if a woman is trying to "fight" a larger male, but many techniques may be useful in aiding an escape!

True. I'm not nor have I said that the woman should stand there and 'fight' with her attacker, but instead, do what she has to to get away! Its amazing what people can do if they put their mind to it. Now, imagine if the woman being attacked had her small child with her. That in itself is going to give her more will to defend herself. Its no different than an animal. The mother is always right there and will do what she has to, in order to protect her baby.

We all have had the debate about size and strength, but come on now, if all it took was size to defeat a small person, then there would be no martial arts, because if that person got into a fight or needed to defend him/her self against a larger person, their skill would go right out the window. I dont care how big you are, if you take a shot to the groin or a hit to the eyes, you're going to get a reaction. Drugs---Well, not everybody that attacks someone is going to be on drugs, so that is a poor example.

Mike

[Cruentus]

We all have had the debate about size and strength, but come on now, if all it took was size to defeat a small person, then there would be no martial arts, because if that person got into a fight or needed to defend him/her self against a larger person, their skill would go right out the window.

Right, but I was refering to "womens self defense" courses where a person might only have a few hours of training. They aren't "studying" a martial art. Now, if we are talking about women who are studying combat arts for many years, then size and strength isn't as big of an issue.

However, a few hours of training allocated for a womens self defense course is not going to be enough for a woman to learn how to beat someone who is larger/stronger then they are in a fight. It may be just enough time for them to learn how to escape and survive, however.

[hardheadjarhead]

Mike,

Nope. Didn't get hit multiple times with elbows, palms...but in a short course as described, I submit it'll be very hard to teach a woman to have that mindset necessary to fire off those shots under duress.

Clearly we both agree that a shot to the eyes or groin is going to get a reaction...I think we differ as to how.

You're right about Ruas' stomps to Varlens foot. It did work very well. It didn't stop him, though. It might well have been the thing that slowed him so much after that final clinch...before Ruas started banging the leg. God, I loved that fight. But I digress...

Eye jabs: Of course you don't need to be a rocket scientist. But you can miss. I'm not sure a person can master this in a short course. When those women leave the course, they'll likely never practice the technique again. The crush and gouge take little training and aren't "high maintenance". They can be done in low light conditions, on icey sidewalks, and...not that this is likely to happen, they can be done in four feet of water. I just use that to illustrate the point.

Knees: Why knee when you can just reach down and grab 'em? Again, if he's pushing the victim, she won't have the balance for a knee. If she's choked from behind, the groin is only accessible to the hands. The two techniques I advocate cover a wide spectrum of scenarios. They're dirt simple.

As for instructors doing their homework concerning sexual assault, I think a lot of them teach stuff without studying the dynamics of rape...and not for the money. They're well intended, but tend to view it from the agonistic perspective that they're familiar with from their own training...or they get it from reading magazines. Note the scenarios in the magazines...guy in knit cap and leather jacket grabs woman's wrist and just STANDS there...no violent pushing, pulling, punching. This of course allows her to fire off kicks and knees without impedence.

Regards,

Steve Scott

[KenpoTess]

Alot of good Information here and varying opinions which is a good thing as we are all individuals and for one person, male or female , one tec may work and not work for another.
Every scenario will never be the same so my thoughts are, Work your base knowledge and/or techniques with varying attacks - til it's so ingrained, that should you come to be confronted you will be able to defend yourself.

Tess

[hardheadjarhead]

Good point, Tess...and we all have our hearts in the right place, regardless of what differences we might have of opinion.

Its an important topic...and well worth discussing.



Regards,

Steve Scott

[jukado1]

I know that everyone has heard that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, BUT no knowledge is more dangerous, if people never think about car crashes would they wear their seat belts ??. probably not, if your not aware of the fact there is danger in the real world I GUARANTY, that you wont be able to defend against it. a little knowledge (may) make you more aware of a situation, that if you've never been made aware of could cause you damage, and just possibly motivate you to continue deeper in to self-defense training.

[TonyM.]

Six to twelve week defense courses are complete bunk. They are self serving ego and money making ventures by wanna bees or worse, "bleeding hearts". The only thing you could possibly learn in this time is a little (very little) about how to spot and avoid trouble. If these courses consentrated on this (most don't) they might have some value. What I've observed in the real world is that after the course most people don't continue training with a partner and after say 4 months to 2 years they have lost the ability to use the few simplified moves they were taught. (some of these moves were extremely questionable in the first place such as falling to the ground and kicking.) Problem now is you have people with false bravado and no real skills in a situation they should have avoided but because "I have training" they get themselves in real trouble. Think of the girls that maced ted bundy and then didn't have the sense to get out of the dorm and call the police. They died.

[hardheadjarhead]

No, Tony, not all short courses are complete bunk. Not all are taught by self-serving people or "bleeding hearts" (whatever that is, in your world). I teach short courses and attempt to make the women keenly aware of how hard it is to defend themselves...and then encourage them to get into committed training.

Am I self-serving? Out for cash? Or a "bleeding heart?" When I teach those classes I get an hourly wage from the YMCA...it hardly buys me and my wife dinner at a nice restaurant. A "bleeding heart?" Whatever.

I'm not familiar with the Ted Bundy scenario. I thought he attacked the girls while they slept. Maybe I'm wrong. I fail to see how it relates to the short course critique, in any case.

Regards,

Steve Scott

[TonyM.]

Exellant Steve! Nice to hear someone is encouraging women to get into real training. Obviously I should have said "most" and not implied "all".
In my world wanna bees are guys that use alternate spellings of famous sports stars names, teach for money with only a 1st dan in TKD, own a tae bo franchise, molest his teenage students and flee back to chicago were he is under house arrest to avoid prison in new hampshire.
A bleeding heart would be a community college tai chi instructor/dance teacher that claims lineage with two chinese masters that has absolutely no tai chi skills at all and hits on most of his young female students.
The one guy that used to teach quality women's self defence, bare hand, weapons and firearms, a former Marine is now retired.
Hopefully you can understand why I'm not impessed with "short courses" as a rule. If they're not backed up with more training they seem to be a waste of time.

[hardheadjarhead]

This whole thread shows the complexity of the problem of women's self defense (men's s.d. is complex, too, but has different dynamics, of course).

1. Women need self confidence to defend themselves.

2. Women need training in defensive tactics.

3. The training techniques have to be effective.

4. The training must encompass the dynamics of rape, i.e., how rapists operate, where they operate, how they typically attack.

5. Instructors need to study #4 so they have an idea of what is going on with sexual assault.

OKAY...now everybody add to this list.

Regards,

Steve Scott

P.S.

Tony, the two guys you mention, immoral jerks that they be, are but a small part of the women's s.d. world. I wish them all the worst in their miserable lives...others, however...like many posting to this thread, don't fit that description.

[DeLamar.J]

I think the best short term self defence class a person could take would be a 6 month full contact kick boxing class or regular boxing with some basic escape techniqes from bear hugs, wrist grabs and headlocks. Full contact ring fighting being the key. It is amazing what you can learn in a full contact kick boxing/boxing match. That is what is needed for a quick learning experience IMO.

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by DeLamar.J
I think the best short term self defence class a person could take would be a 6 month full contact kick boxing class or regular boxing with some basic escape techniqes from bear hugs, wrist grabs and headlocks. Full contact ring fighting being the key. It is amazing what you can learn in a full contact kick boxing/boxing match. That is what is needed for a quick learning experience IMO.

No doubt much can be learned that way, but...considering the reputation boxing gets (television version), it would be a challenge to convince the average female to take up a 6-month training in full-contact boxing...

What approach would you use to overcome that reputation and make it more appealing for the female population?

- Ceicei

[hardheadjarhead]

What do you mean by "a person?" taking a full six month program in full contact kickboxing?

How about the elderly woman? The handicapped woman? The woman who is a rape survivor? Could a 40 year old mother of three handle that class? How about one with arthritis? Sciatica?

Each one of those have phyisical/emotional issues that might make it very, very difficult for them to handle a "full contact" program.

I mention this because it seems that throughout the threads dealing with women and self defense people seem to be talking about YOUNG CONFIDENT HEALTHY WOMEN.

What about those that aren't?

Regards,

Steve Scott

[DeLamar.J]

Originally posted by Ceicei
No doubt much can be learned that way, but...considering the reputation boxing gets (television version), it would be a challenge to convince the average female to take up a 6-month training in full-contact boxing...

What approach would you use to overcome that reputation and make it more appealing for the female population?

- Ceicei To talk the average female into it, you would have to explain to them that taking a self defence course and playing patty cake aint going to teach you anything in a real fight against a man twice as strong as you. You have to train hard, and to the point if you want to get a quick and effective lesson in 6 months. Pain is the best instuctor, but no one wants to attend his class, I know you martial artists have heard that before. And it is true if you want to learn in six months. I would tell them that if they dont want to get punched out by some peice of trash in a wife beater then they need to learn to take a real punch because you most always get hit at least once in a real fight, and you have to learn how to throw a nice punch. Training in a gym is good, but you need on the job experience. Thats what seperates the good from the better. There is no easy way to learn to REALLY defend yourself. It takes hard work. If you want to take a self defence class that gives you a fasle since of confidence, go ahead. If you really want to learn how to kick some *** then join my class. Would that talk the average woman into it? I think so, if they are really serious about wanting to learn how to fight back. Because you are not going to learn very many things in 6 months without full contact fighting. And it would be something they would never forget.

[DeLamar.J]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
What do you mean by "a person?" taking a full six month program in full contact kickboxing?

How about the elderly woman? The handicapped woman? The woman who is a rape survivor? Could a 40 year old mother of three handle that class? How about one with arthritis? Sciatica?

Each one of those have phyisical/emotional issues that might make it very, very difficult for them to handle a "full contact" program.

I mention this because it seems that throughout the threads dealing with women and self defense people seem to be talking about YOUNG CONFIDENT HEALTHY WOMEN.

What about those that aren't?

Regards,

Steve Scott I dont think those type of fragile people are going do be benifiting much martial arts fighting. Some but not much, things like eye gouging, hitting in the groing. I think the best thing for people in those conditions to do to defend themselves would be things like proper use of pepper spray, a concield weapon permit, basic knife attacks, keeping an emergency wistle handy. Or maybey proper use of starting fluid and a lighter jk. Those type of things for those type of people not wanting, or not capable of going full contact would be best for a quick fix in 6 months IMO.

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by DeLamar.J
To talk the average female into it, you would have to explain to them that taking a self defence course and playing patty cake aint going to teach you anything in a real fight against a man twice as strong as you.
...
I would tell them that if they dont want to get punched out by some peice of trash in a wife beater then they need to learn to take a real punch because you most always get hit at least once in a real fight, and you have to learn how to throw a nice punch.
...
There is no easy way to learn to REALLY defend yourself. It takes hard work. If you want to take a self defence class that gives you a fasle since of confidence, go ahead. If you really want to learn how to kick some *** then join my class. Would that talk the average woman into it? I think so, if they are really serious about wanting to learn how to fight back.

Your mileage may vary, but...

Hmmm, ok, the average woman doesn't take martial arts because it's considered "too violent." I highly doubt they'd join something so blatantly violent. I've been doing martial arts for over 10 years and I'm not interested in taking that kind of class. And I'm a guy...

Two, self defense is not about kicking ***. It's about getting home safely. You don't have to learn how to pound someone into the ground to do that. All you need is some physical fitness and some defensive strategies to give you the opportunities to flee. It could be something as simple as a slap and a good push will do. She doesn't have to learn how to fight full contact for 6 rounds trying to knock the other person out.

WhiteBirch

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
I mention this because it seems that throughout the threads dealing with women and self defense people seem to be talking about YOUNG CONFIDENT HEALTHY WOMEN.

What about those that aren't?

Most of the crimes committed against women are committed against the 12-25 age group (most likely young and healthy). It's not that other ages don't need it, it's that it's just more prominent in the younger group. Younger women are also more likely to be more physical than the older crowd because this generation has more doors opened to them in that world. I could never have seem my mother taking martial arts lessons when she was younger. It just wasn't what a "proper" woman did in those days.

I'll teach anyone that wants to learn. It's just that most of the people coming in are the 12-29 age group and are reasonably in shape.

WhiteBirch

[hardheadjarhead]

"Most of the crimes committed against women are committed against the 12-25 age group (most likely young and healthy). It's not that other ages don't need it, it's that it's just more prominent in the younger group. Younger women are also more likely to be more physical than the older crowd because this generation has more doors opened to them in that world. I could never have seem my mother taking martial arts lessons when she was younger. It just wasn't what a "proper" woman did in those days.

I'll teach anyone that wants to learn. It's just that most of the people coming in are the 12-29 age group and are reasonably in shape."


I see your point and perspective. I've got this sort of debate going on in other threads...so I'll leave it alone here.



Regards,

Steve Scott

[atigernamedkoolaid]

I feel that short women's self defense classes are beneficial when, like many have said, the material presented can be easily applied and remembered and can apply to real life situations. It also depends upon the person's overall attitude. I posted the thread about my 81 year old grandmother defending herself against a bank robber. If a little old lady who has never had a day of training in her life can defend herself against a hurried bank robber and knock him to the ground with a single elbow, then surely a short 6 week course can teach a woman a few simple blows to escape the clutches of a male attacker.

Short women's self defense courses are not to my knowledge suppose to be designed to teach a woman to stand and fight, they should be designed to make a couple of good basic hits in order to get away from the attacker. I have been training in martial arts for about 3-4 years now, but even I am not going to stand and fight an attacker twice as big as I am when I can make 3 good hits to put them on the ground long enough for me to run away.

:rofl:

[Chattan]

Regardless if you are a man or woman you would not want to stand and fight in a violent altercation. Your goal is survival and to get to safety as quickly as possible. As has been stated here before, only the simplest of tools will work in an attack and these should be focused on. Is 12 weeks enough to develop the ability to learn to defend oneself? Yes, as long as the training is geared toward teaching the woman (or man) how a violent altercation occurs and the concepts and properties behind it. I like to break down SD in 80% mental and 20% physical. Therefore, when teaching how to defend oneself the training should include drills and scenario based training that incorporates the mental aspects so that a conceptual understanding of violent altercations is developed within the student. It is easy to argue over what types of physical tools are taught but it is important to remember that these should be natural and functional under stress (ie: gross motor skills).

[hapki-bujutsu]

my two cents.

I helped teach one of these courses with a friend. The interesting thing is what he taught was based on marine hand to hand. It is what they teach whenyou first get there. It was made to learn fast. It was only 12 moves. He did 12 classes working on a move a class. For someone with no training I think it helps. It makes people aware of thing they never even thought of. The head twist he taught head most of the women going i never though of that I would have just tried to beat him off me. It does not take alotof strenght to twist a mans head against his neck and the body goes where the head goes. I guess kiss really applies here.
besides if you teach 100 woman and only one is attacked and is saved my a move youshowed them I think it's worth it.

Just my thoughts.

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu
It was made to learn fast. It was only 12 moves. He did 12 classes working on a move a class. For someone with no training I think it helps. It makes people aware of thing they never even thought of. The head twist he taught head most of the women going i never though of that I would have just tried to beat him off me. It does not take alotof strenght to twist a mans head against his neck and the body goes where the head goes.


Just curious. What are the rest of those moves? You've already mentioned one of the twelve, which is a head twist.

- Ceicei

[hapki-bujutsu]

low thrust kick

har grab and knifehand strike

grab and foreknuckle strike

hammerfist strike

heel stomp

hiarpull and punch

palmheel to chin and eye gouge

cupped hand ear strike and eye gouge

downward hairhead grab with knee strike to face

hair or head grab with three finger grab of throat

head hold with thumb gouge

the guy who came up with it was larry somthing

He then would show onthe last day how they can mix and match togeather

[hardheadjarhead]

What does the person grab prior to the forenuckle strike?

SCS

[hapki-bujutsu]

anything. somthing they are wearing, hair, there hand if they grab your neck. somthing to that effect

[Old Tiger]

Well...this has been interesting reading. My two cents? Teach a woman simple basics that she can be confident with with her goal being doing what it takes to get away. Not stand and try to kick the guy's as* but just get away. Environmental awareness cannot be stressed enough. Stay out of potentially dangerous situations. They have to be taught how to "turn on the killer inside" to fight for their lives. BEST suggestion? Get an American Bulldog, Rottweiler, Dogue De Bordueaux or other suitable breed, have it protection trained and keep it by your side. Most attacker asshol*s look for easy targets.

[hardheadjarhead]

A dog is a great suggestion, but not always a viable option for some women.

She may not be able to keep one because of lease restrictions, she might be allergic to it, or she may be too old or infirm to keep a good sized dog. She also simply might not be a "dog person".

But it is a good idea, for the woman who likes dogs and can keep one.


Regards,

Steve Scott

[arnisador]

Yes, dogs can be a great deterrent--time and time again one hears that a burglar's worst enemy is the noise, not necessarily even the bite, of a dog.

But yes, it's not for everyone! Along similar lines, arranging to walk in pairs rather than alone when possible is also a good idea.

[hardheadjarhead]

Yup. Safety in numbers. AND...

Carry a cell phone. Have 911 on speed dial.

Keep the cell phone charged...have it charging at night in your bedroom. If an intruder takes the extension off the hook downstairs, it can disable every phone in the house. The cell phone circumvents that.

Also handy to have if the ol' car breaks down. You can call for help. Also nice is to have one of those big "CALL POLICE" flourescent orange signs that you can fold out and put into the back window. Perps will likely not stop if they suspect someone has called the cops, and they might be on the way.



SCS

[hapki-bujutsu]

come to think of it i have heard of sevral times a woman being saved by a cell phone. They should be carried by anyone who goes out alot alone.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
Yup. Safety in numbers. AND...

Carry a cell phone. Have 911 on speed dial.
. . .
SCS

In Many areas they will have a 911 Cell Phone program. If you are in a high risk or low income or both, or what have you, and you desire one, you can get some of the old used phones that will power up and work for 911. The phone is free in certain programs, and the call is free. Check for it if money or cost is an issue.


Also if yuo are leavng work at night and have the cell phone, and have to walk the dark parking lot, be on the phone already and talking to your spouse or friend. Yet, do not only talk on the phone, you are watching the lot and talking and listing your progress. i.e. "Yes I am now leaving the building and heading for my car. I am walking across the parking lot", while watching and looking and being obvious about your looking. Also have your keys in the other hand from your cell phone, or use a hands free head set.

With Respect and Regards
:asian:

[hardheadjarhead]

Thanks, Rich...I'll bank some of those suggestions.

Another:

If you get on the cell phone in a crisis and dial 911, say your location TWICE in a clear voice. Then tell the nature of the crisis. This is a good tactic too if you're in one of those areas lacking 911. There are a few places left like that, I guess.

In the future cell phones will have GPS tracking devices, which may make this obsolete. I don't see that happening for a while, though. They'll have to integrate it into 911 services, and that'll take time.

Regards,


Steve

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
In the future cell phones will have GPS tracking devices, which may make this obsolete. I don't see that happening for a while, though. They'll have to integrate it into 911 services, and that'll take time.

I hope these come sooner than later. It would be a boon for the deaf who use cell phones/pagers (we use them for text messaging). If we run into trouble, hopefully there is a "hot button" that would help locate us.

I've been stranded more times than I care to count with car problems (thankfully, we no longer have that car anymore!) One of these times was a dark, cold wintry night with strong winds and snow/ice on the ground. I had three very young children with me. The nearest house was too far for me to walk (about a quarter mile up the mountainside) and I couldn't carry all of my kids. That was the year text messaging came out and boy, was I so grateful for that technology!!! It allowed me to contact my husband who had to drive 11 miles to come rescue us.

In a true emergency, GPS 911 feature would be good.

- Ceicei

[MommaCoke]

I teach a lot of these short term SD classes and I know that they are extremely beneficial. If my ladies walk away only remembering one thing, then they are better off than when they walked in the door. The ladies I have taught, from very old to very young, receive an AMAZING boost of self confidence from these classes. I have had MANY women tell me that they would never have fought back before and now they will. To me, that is a sucess.

Are they going to be able to execute a technique? No. But that is not the point of these classes. It is to help the community become aware of dangers and instill the knowledge in them that they are not helpless and that they are worth fighting for. It is up to them how much and if they practice. If you question their validity, I invite you to join one of my classes if you are ever in my neck of the woods. You should see these shy and 'helpless' women kick some major and real ass on the fifth week of the class when I have my boys attack them for real. The terror and panic is real, the attacks are real and my boys walk away sore and very convinced of their skills.

[hardheadjarhead]

It is to help the community become aware of dangers and instill the knowledge in them that they are not helpless and that they are worth fighting for.

Well said...er...written.

I'll take you up on your offer to come by and check out what you're teaching. Anything I can learn that'll make me a better instructor is more than welcome. It won't be any time in the near future, though. Long way, Seattle.

SCS

[arnisador]

On a somewhat related note...I'll start serious training for my 9 year old within the year, as I did and continue to do for her older brother. I don't know if she'll keep up with it after she graduates and goes away to college or whatever. My hope and belief is that if I can ingrain 8 years of training in here while she's at home that even if she stops training she'll take away something useful. Do people think I'm kidding myself, or is 8 years of every day training going to last her for a while (assuming she doesn't grow to love it like I do and hence continues on her own)?

[hardheadjarhead]

Jeff,

Are YOU doing the training? Or someone else? Training your own kid could get sticky.

If the kid doesn't want to train, that's problematic, too. You can lead a horse to water....


Steve

[arnisador]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
Training your own kid could get sticky.

Yeah, I know. Philosophically I believe it's probably better for them to train with someone else. Until last week there was only one option in town and I considered it unacceptable (a sport-oriented TKD place with many child black belts). Just last week the JKD instructor I train under started a children's program which is something I'd have faith in. Right now the times don't work though.

I expect to start my son there in a year when he's old enough for the adult class. But, I'll still train Modern Arnis with him. He enjoys it. For my daughter, at this point I still plan on traning her, at least initially.

[hardheadjarhead]

Sounds like you've thought it through...and are aware of the pitfalls.

Training a family member can be tough...whether it be spouse, child, or sibling.



Steve

[Rich Parsons]

I agree that training a family member or close friend can be tough.

I agree with your premise Arnisador, that 8 years of training something should stick in there and come up in the time of need (* Let us hope she never has the need *).


Do you start with the stick work or do you do empty hands. And if empty hands do you do Modern Arnis or JKD or Something Japanese or Korean?

I personally think the Modern Arnis empty hands would be enough, and I also would add in the stick techniques, only a smaller stick for the size fo the student. :)

:asian:

[arnisador]

I will teach Modern Arnis for this, as I do with her brother, and I do start with the stick but overall I put a greater emphasis on empty hand and on knife than I would otherwise. I think there's enough in Modern Arnis, though of course having studied so many different arts over the years I do mix in other things I've learned.

I certainly want a good amount of ground-grappling for her too. I'll likely send her to BJJ or an appropriate Judo class for that.

[KenpoTess]

What think you newer members?

[samurai69]

I have just finished teaching a 6 week course, on the third week a student came up to me and said thanks as they had already had to use the verbal fence when approached by a "would be attacker" who was demanding money with menacies (sp).

If it only works once, then it is worth it. I always run follow up sessions, but its still down to the student to come back for them.

[Kacey]

I think that multi-week courses are much more useful than one day or one weekend courses - but like any other skills that are used only occasionally (like CPR) people who are not training regularly should take a periodic refresher.

[samurai69]

I think that multi-week courses are much more useful than one day or one weekend courses - but like any other skills that are used only occasionally (like CPR) people who are not training regularly should take a periodic refresher.

It wouldnt be so bad if the students from 1 day courses could attend shorter refresher courses (1 or 2 hours - every month or 2) as like with the cpr if you do not practice, these techniques can be forgotten, though the situational awarness part of good courses should carry people through

[Hand Sword]

I think any bit of training will be beneficial, assuming the will to train is there. Anything is better than nothing, even if done over a weekend, and only 1 thing is retained.

[still learning]

Hello, I enjoy reading all the above posts. This book "Strong on Defense" by Stanford Strong a retired police officer., has lots of great advice and stories of survivers of rape and aductions. A must read book for everyone.

Two things that seems everyone should do: Always fight back, resist, and never be taken two a secondary place..things will get worse there. Learn not to give up and fight back!

Best to this right away..in a car...grab the steering wheel and crash the car especially in a business area or homes around you.

Kenpotess pointed out..crawl under the car and hang on to something from being pull out! or run around a car from being grab. DO SOMETHING...fight back, resist always....Aloha

PS:Womens self-defense course are NOT a waste of time...finding a good one may take time...

[stickarts]

I have taught self defense courses periodically for approximately 16 years and progressively make improvements based on information that I get from crime statistics as well as feedback that I get from women that have actually taken my courses.
I have had women successfully use preventive tips that they have learned in my courses as well as actual techniques that they have learned including various kicks, fingerlocks and claws/strikes to the face. Some techniques are more probable then others but everything in the course are all useful in different scenarios. Scenarios range from someone who is just being a jerk to the other extreme of someone who is trying to maim or kill.
It is also geared to get the student's feet wet for a full fledged Martial Arts program if that is their interest.

Different opinions are always interesting to hear and evaluate but to me, actual successful experience is what makes a qualified opinion vs. just a personal opinion.

I am interested in hearing additional feedback from instructors that have actually taught women's self defense for a length of time and have actual feedback from their previous students that have successfully used the techniques from their classes.

Any good success stories out there you are willing to share? :)

[donna]

A lot may depend upon the womans attitude as has been stated in previous posts. From my personal experience, I did a very !!! short 2 hour course on women self defence 17 years ago, I cant remember any of the physical moves that were taught, But the awareness message has stuck like glue and I remember it to this day. From that day 17 years ago I always check the car before getting in, even in daylight hours, I am always assessing everyday items as to their weapon value, and I always look people in the eye when out and about especially if I feel funny about them. I have learnt to trust my instinct more. It made me be more Aware.
And the big plus is that I am now training as a result of that class even though it was a while ago that I did it.

[stickarts]

A lot may depend upon the womans attitude as has been stated in previous posts. From my personal experience, I did a very !!! short 2 hour course on women self defence 17 years ago, I cant remember any of the physical moves that were taught, But the awareness message has stuck like glue and I remember it to this day. From that day 17 years ago I always check the car before getting in, even in daylight hours, I am always assessing everyday items as to their weapon value, and I always look people in the eye when out and about especially if I feel funny about them. I have learnt to trust my instinct more. It made me be more Aware.
And the big plus is that I am now training as a result of that class even though it was a while ago that I did it.

That's a success story! Sounds like you had a good effective class!