JD is using professor title for master!!!

[Guro Harold]

Hello All,

I was quite shocked to discover on JD's website that they are using the title of professor to designate the title of master!

The website clearly refers to Lisa McManus as Professor Lisa McManus and Michael Bates as well.

I have nothing personal against either of these two individuals and I deeply respect Michael Bates for looking after the Professor when he got sick, however, to use that title to me crosses the line of simple decency.

Palusut

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Unfortunatly there is nothing short of beating the crap out of them that we can do to stop them from doing this.

I believe that it is best to judge people by thier actions!


:idunno: :mad:

[arnisador]

I note from http://www.professorpresas.com/news.htm that Ms. McManus is using the title self-reefrentially.


On Saturday, February 16, 2002, Grandmaster Max M. Pallen hosted the SAMA-SAMA Martial Arts Seminar in San Leandro, California. Grandmaster Jeffrey Delaney, Professor Michael T. Bates and I (Professor Lisa McManus) were invited to represented Modern Arnis at this very special event.


What are the ranks and titles of Mr. Bates and Ms. McManus? By "Master" do you mean that they were 5th degree black belts?

[Icepick]

I'm thinking of dubbing myself "KING of MODERN ARNIS".

What do you guys think?

:knight:

[Celadora]

What do you mean we can´t do anything to stop this? We can do a lot; we can stop supporting this organization. Anyone who finds this move disrespectful can stop going to the seminars, camps, affiliated schools, etc of this organization. It is tough to be a ¨professor¨without any students.

I held grains of respect for the JD organization for a longer period of time than most, but I must agree that this crosses the line of respect to the Professor´s legacy.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Icepick
I'm thinking of dubbing myself "KING of MODERN ARNIS".

May I have a dukedom?

It is disrespectful, in my opinion, to use "Professor", which was so closely associated with the Professor. And all the more so to now have multiple Professors whereas during his lifetime there was only one.

I'd like to hear a statement from Mr. Delaney regarding the use of titles in his organization.

[Bob Hubbard]

Jeff Delany can do whatever he wants with his organization. We can say what we will, but, he makes the rules for his group. If you don't like them, there are other Arnis groups.

Alot of people have strong opinions on the various MA issues.... I would really like to hear Mr. Delanys side of this, and the rest of the issues.

[Guro Harold]

True, JD can do whatever he wants with his organization, however, to me this issue is about character.

A man or woman can remarry the day after they bury a spouse, but does that make it right? There is such a thing, even though it is not written, of respecting the dead.

GM Presas was only a man, so I am not saying that we should worship him and stop living our lives. But I am saying that it takes a lot of audacity to claim a title with such context so soon after his death without the years of experience, training, knowledge, and service that GM Presas and the other "Professors" have put in.

Palusut:soapbox:

[Dan Anderson]

Hmmm....Fascinating. It is JD's organization and he can promote how he wishes but I hope there is no serious backlash awaiting. I can see an Emin Boztepe incident coming in the future if this continues to escalate:duel: Personally, I see it as a validation of what I have been predicting for the last ten years and in my dreams, I see Ed Parker looking down at us laughing his ass off. Sorry, but that's how I see it.
Dan:wavey:
"I swear by the bood of my grandchildren that I will not be the one who will break the peace we have made here today."
Vito Corleone

[Susumu Kodai]

A self promoted "GrandMaster" who never tested for his last belt, but only had it 'awarded'....now less than a year after the death of the True Grandmaster of Modern Arnis, profanes his memory by passing out the title of 'professor', when to many many arnisidors around the world, the only true "Professor" is Remy Presas....

It is no wonder that the majority of the MOTTs selected to disassociate themselves from this dishonorable curr.

He seems to spit on the memory of the one who made him what his is.

It will bite him, in the end.


I remain, Kodai.

:asian:

[bloodwood]

Maybe they're doing it just to annoy the rest of the arnis community just as they have been doing since the Professor passed. You know like shoving it in our faces just to say that they can do whatever they want. If they don't think this will have repercussions they better think twice, some things you can get away with and others you can't. Disrespect will turn people off to their group, and rightfully so. Maybe they need to feel more important than they are. Legends in their own minds.
As for Michael Bates he was just promoted to 4th degree by the Professor shortly before he passed. If your name was Bates would you rather be called Master or Professor. Enough said.
:lol:

[Bob Hubbard]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
no comment..... :rofl:

[Bob Hubbard]

In responce to the comments here and in other threads, it is a shame that no one from the IMAF cares to present their organization here. Perhaps they have a reason for doing some of the things that, to us looks 'wrong' but to them is perfectly ok. Maybe (playing devils advocate here) the use of the title is meant to honor GM Presas memory?

I would like to see an official IMAF comment on this issue, but have grown tired of sending emails that get no reply. Perhaps a lurking IMAF member can inspire a reply?



:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I would like to see an official IMAF comment on this issue, but have grown tired of sending emails that get no reply. Perhaps a lurking IMAF member can inspire a reply?

I absolutely agree. I would very much like to hear from a representative of either of the IMAFs on a variety of issues but I'd particularly like to hear from Mr. Delaney on this issue.

[Celadora]

Michael Bates calls himself, ¨jr. Prof¨on his own web page as well.

The fact that no one will defend the group for this forum says a lot about what type of following they have.

[Dieter]

Hi,
just my 2 cents about the use of the Professor title in JD´s IMAF:
Michael Bates was called junior professor by Remy Presas himself. If this was ment as a joke or as a title with relevance I don´t know, but I have heared "Michael Bates, the junior-professor" already around 1998.

In spanish speaking countries, a teacher is "el profesor".
Lisa McManus just started to teach in Mexico. Perhaps she was approached there with this title and then uses it in the US too.

When I was teaching in spain, I was approached like this too. But it simply means teacher.

For her using this title now in the US seems of course an insult for all of us, who don´t know why she does it and I agree, that it would be good, if somebody of JD´s IMAF would make soem explanations here. Why not mailing this question to her directly?
Btw, my last informations about her rank is 3rd Dan. But I am not sure if this is still correct.

In Germany nobody is allowed to call himself a professor, unless he earnerd this title through a long carrer at the university, has made all the necessary tests and written thesesis and all that (we call this a habilitation) and became a call, to be the head of a faculty at an official university. If you call yourself a professor without these credentialy, this is considered a crime because you pretend to be somebody or have a title, that you did not earn through a university career. You can come into prsion for that.

As I said, just my 2 cents to that topic

Regards form Germany

Datu Dieter Knüttel
http://www.abanico.de

[bloodwood]

Dieter is correct on Michael Bates being given the title jr professor around 1998. This was done by the Professor at the request of Michael Bates as not to have the title Master attached to his last name for obvious reasons.

[Dieter]

Wow, thats a good explanation.

[Bob Hubbard]

Thank you for the info Datu Knüttel and bloodwood. That does make sence, and look less damning than on first glance.

Does anyone have a contact with the group and can get an offical answer? I'd try, but I'm really tired of sending invites and being ignored. (sent 5 last year). I'd really like to see all MA groups represented here.

Thank you.

:asian:

[Guro Harold]

So, I can understand the personal title of Jr. Professor given to Michael. Bates and true he did include it in quotes on his own website. But it does seem that Lisa ran with the "professor" title in describing herself and Michael Bates.

[Guro Harold]

In reply to Arnisador and Datu Dieter's post:

It appears if you read the sequence of the camp chronicles that Lisa is now a "master instuctor". She was a third degree around the time of the Veracruz trip and from memory, which could be faulty, she was a second degree last year when she came to the Raleigh camp.

So maybe she was promoted when she was appointed in her position on JD's IMAF board.

Hmmm, should I open up a can a worms by comparing skill levels between her, Karen "The Amazon", or Lori.:) :eek: ;)

Kaith, where are the smiles for "opening a can of worms" or "I am in deep **** now!":eek:

[Bob Hubbard]

Dont think i got those...but, look on mysmilies.com. if ya see 1, I'll add it. :)

[Susumu Kodai]

When you talk with him. Ask. Did he test for rank, or just have it given in back room. Someone on here ask question "Is Elvis Really an 8th Degree Black Belt?" I say, did he test for it in front of his peers? If not, then no. He is, how you say? Paper-Black-Belt.

Last I see on site, he is 3rd, then he is 5th. Now, he Grandmaster. Thats interesting.
Let us all see documentation. Proof. Look on http://archive.org you can see how he rewrite history to make him look well, and others look poor. Jeff Delany very dishonorable.

I still say, you no test for rank, you not really rank.


I remain, Kodai.

[Dan Anderson]

Sosumu Kodai,
This is interesting. Walk me through website you posted so that I can find for myself what you said about the ascension of JD's rank. Very interesting.
Dan Anderson :asian:

[Bob Hubbard]

I'm familiar with archive.org. Its a very good resource for looking back through time to how websites used to be.

Short form is http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://modernarnis.com

every date with a * by it is a detected change.

(If that doesnt work, just goto archive.org and type in modernarnis.com as the search term, and it should show you the history.)

Earliest date I see is in 1998. I'm curious too... What information are you refering to Kodai?



:asian:

[Tapps]

Everyone relax.

I have personally decreed that for a period of one year anyone who has ever met Professor Presas may use any title they wish.

At the end of one year I will eat thier souls !!!

Hope this clears things up.

"Almighty Tapps
Great and Undisputed
Grand Poo Bah
of all things
involvong sticks"


:angry: :angry: : :angel: :angel: :angry: :angry:"Almighty Tapps
Great and Undisputed
Grand Poo Bah
of all things
involvong sticks"

[Guro Harold]

"Soul Eater"
"King of Modern Arnis"

Common denominator, Buffalo, NY, Hmmm.
:idunno: :D :redeme:

[Bob Hubbard]

The infamous Buffalo connection, ya found us out. <cue dramatic theme music> :D Actually, Theres quite a few folks on here from WNY, since I'm located there, and have been doing alot of local marketing of MartialTalk to the schools here. I also run a portal for martialartists in the WNY area (wnymartialarts.com) which will be folded into MartialTalk shortly.



Ok, I've started looking through the archives, and while a very interesting read on the history of the IMAF under GM Presas, I'm not seeing anything obvious. Someone help me here, I feel like I'm looking for a needle in a haystack.



BTW Tapps, Can I be Ohkhi for Life? I never had the pleasure of training with GM Presas, but I need a title that fits my role in most classes I've been in. :rofl:

:asian:

[Rich Parsons]

To all:

From Memory, I found it interesting also how one
day I was reading and JD was Lakan Talo and then
the next GM Presas is sick and then a couple
of days later he is Lakan Lima and then a short
period later one of the Co-successors. Other
terms were also used, but I prefer not to use them
even in snide comments.

I have not searched the archives, but was a
regular browser to check out the next seminars
and availabel dates when GM Presas was near by
to get him to stop by and chat ;~).

Have a nice Day

Rich

[Dan Anderson]

Yo Tapps,
I hereby proclaim myself Supreme Sovereign Monarch of Modern Arnis. I claim this title by both divine right and by alphabetical order. :D If you wish to come and eat my soul, you'll have to settle for skivvies instead :moon: .
Supremely yours,
Dan Anderson :asian:

[Tapps]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

Yo Tapps,
I hereby proclaim myself Supreme Sovereign Monarch of Modern Arnis. I claim this title by both divine right and by alphabetical order. :D If you wish to come and eat my soul, you'll have to settle for skivvies instead :moon: .
Supremely yours,
Dan Anderson :asian:

What kind of wine goes with the soul of a West Coast guy ?

By the way, Buffalo was built on a hellmound and is a center
for demonic ..... Oh wait, that's Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Never mind

[Susumu Kodai]

You all funny people.:rofl:

I post my information soon. Am verifying a few parts first. Must be correct.

Kaith is right. Do search on modernarnis.com on archive.org. also see professorpresas.com. read news. compare information from camps. see who has sudden promotions. see who disappears. first delaney is 3rd, then 5th, then co-grandmaster, then sole grandmaster. all in 6 month time. something funny up. when did he test for 5th? with who? where? why does delaney always rewrite history to make himself look good?

IMAF die when real Grandmaster become ill. All that left is grave robbers. they promote selves for personal glory, dishonoring memory of man who gave so much to them.


I also have information on MOTTs, and DATUs. Very good reading... many deceitful people in there. some good ones. many dishonorable. history tells tale of many lies, many falsehoods. many come out of shadows. picking bones of great man, all for own glory. many claim to lead. most not worthy. they are not of family. i will say more later.


I remain, Kodai.

[Bob Hubbard]

The family already has an organization. Their web site is at http://modernarnis.com Delaney's organization lost the usage of the domain shortly after GM Presas' death last year, and have since reestablished a new site.

So, what you're saying in summary is that since Remy's death, JD's been doing his own thing? I can't see much wrong with that, it is his organization afterall. Again, wiether I agree with him or not, it is his organization, and he can do what he wants. Grant rank, creat titles, promote without requiring testing, etc. He can call himself "Supreme Grandmaster of All Modern Arnis" if he likes. :shrug: His playground, his rules.

As an aside: I've seem many folks using the title of Professor in various arts. Can anyone name a few, and where they are in the grand scheme of things? Are they all art founders, grandmasters themselves, high ranks, or what? I mean, while it seems to be disrespectful to Remy, is it really that unusual to have a "professor" title? Just curious.

:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

As an aside: I've seem many folks using the title of Professor in various arts. Can anyone name a few, and where they are in the grand scheme of things? Are they all art founders, grandmasters themselves, high ranks, or what? I mean, while it seems to be disrespectful to Remy, is it really that unusual to have a "professor" title?

I think that it became more popular after Prof. Presas became well known but he was not the first. See this thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=481) for its codified use in kenpo, and this thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=862).

Prof. Wally Jay (http://www.danzan.com/HTML/PEOPLE/wally.html)
Prof. Henry Seishiro Okazaki (http://www.danzan.com/HTML/history.html)
Prof. Emperado (http://vbms.unl.edu/cirillo/emper.html)
Prof. Florendo Visitation (http://www.veearnisjitsu.com/professors.htm)
Prof. Kenji Tomiki (http://www.aikidoamerica.com/)

A Yahoo! search (http://google.yahoo.com/bin/query?p=%2bprofessor+%2b%22martial+arts%22&hc=0&hs=5) turns up many many more.

[Guro Harold]

All,

So does Professor translate into "master" or "grandmaster" in those examples?

How about for Modern Arnis? Besides Michael Bates, did the Professor give the title of "professor" to anyone who was not a Datu?

Even for other Filipino styles: Tuhon is different than Grand Tuhon.
A Puyong (sic?)Guro is different than a guro and grandmaster.

True, it is JD's organization and with it he can do whatever he likes but the title "Professor" to me means grandmaster and that you have contributed much to the art for more years than most of us have been living on this world, let alone have studied.

Just my $0.02,

Palusut

[Bob Hubbard]

Part of the problem is a confusion over what all the different titles mean. Follow the bouncing geek and see if any of this makes sence:

Michael Bates is a 4th degree BB. He's also a MOTT. "The highest level of achievement in MA". He's also a "Professor".

Wait.

Remy was a "Professor". He was also a Grandmaster. Traditionally a 10th degree.

Hmm... It gets better. We not swerve to MOTT-Ville.

JD is a MOTT. He's also a 5th. He's also a grandmaster. So, is he a 10th now?
Ken Smith is a MOTT. He is a 5th.
Randy Shea is a MOTT. Also a grandmaster. Also, last recorded as a 5th.


we bounce to left field now....Datu-Land
Kelly Worden is a 6th. He's also a Datu.
Dieter Knüttel is a 6th. He's a Datu.
Tim Hartman is a 6th. He's a Datu.
Dan Anderson is also a 6th. Not a Datu though. He's a Senior Master.
Ric Jornales is a Datu. No rank in MA though.


So, assuming the following is true, whats the scoop?
If we assume that as has been stated elsewhere, that both the MOTT and DATU "titles" are seperate from rank, how do we decipher the rest?

Despite having 6 Datus (all 6th degree) Remy reportedly chose to create the title of MOTT, and promoted several individuals to 5th degree, and placed 2 of them at the top (JD and RS). For whatever reasons, we now end up with 2 IMAF's, each headed by 1 of the co-successors, who are now both suddenly Grandmasters.

I'm confused.

Lets recap, shall we? Going by rank we have the following:

Remy - Grandmaster, 10th degree, Professor
JD - Grandmaster, 10th degree or 5th?, MOTT
Randy Shea - Grandmaster, 10th degree or 5th?, MOTT
Kelly Worden is a 6th. He's also a Datu.
Dieter Knüttel is a 6th. He's a Datu.
Tim Hartman is a 6th. He's a Datu.
Dan Anderson is also a 6th. Senior Master.
Ric Jornales is a Datu. No rank in MA though.
Michael Bates - Professor. Is that 10th? or the 4th?
Ken Smith is a MOTT. He is a 5th.
Lisa McManus - rank unknown, but is a Professor too.

I left out some folks, just to shorten this, and mean no slights or insults to anyone listed. You're all just examples, so please, no one get yer panties in a knot. :) I pulled some info from various sites, and a few threads here. As you can see, its confusing.

I don't have any answers either. :(

Personally, I don't have a problem with Mr. Bates using the title...in a way, I see it as a tribute to Remy. Especially if it was the "in" joke as was mentioned.

Lisa McManus is a somewhat different story. According to their website, as of Feb. 10th, she was a Master Instructor, but on the 16th she was a "Professor".

I'm even more confused now. Gah! I think I'll go study JKD...at least thats not as complex. :rofl:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Michael Bates is a 4th degree BB. He's also a MOTT.

Is this so? He is a MOTT?



I think I'll go study JKD...at least thats not as complex.

Belt rank is becoming more common in JKD schools, I believe, and they also have levels of instructorship if I am not mistaken.

[Bob Hubbard]

I thought he was...if I'm wrong, please let me know. :) I doublechecked and don't see him listed on RS's site as a MOTT... maybe he isn't.

ok, dug thru archive.org.... don't see his name listed on the press release (which is no longer available on JD site)

I stand corrected.

[Ryukyu]

I had received a notice from Ms McManus about an Arnis seminar in my area and was also confufused byher use of the professor title. Being that I don't know everyone in professor Presas's organiztion I asked abourt this in an e-mail and she explained her professor statuts as:
I am a Professor at Norwich University teaching tactics and Modern Arnis to United States Marine Staff,
Cadets and U.S Naval Personnel and Cadets.
Maybe this doesn't clear things up too much since it is a logical assumtion that the use of the term professor on Modern Arnis websites and literature refers to one's status in Modern Arnis. Or maybe its just an honest mistake. At any rate I hope this is helpful. Yours in the arts, Ryukyu

[Celadora]

This would be a logical explination. But, if this is the case, then a stardard of consistancy needs to be set. She is a university professor in tactics and Modern Arnis (is there now a doctorate program in Modern Arnis?) and therefore uses a professor title. Michael Bates, however, uses the title as a ¨nickname¨ given to him by the Professor (the real one). Yet the two, with clearly different standards and sentiments, are used together in the same sentence in the same web page as if they signify equality in rank and achievement. This is not a question of skill level, but of plain and simple definition of terms. One needs consistancy in ranking.

[tsunaminw]

kaith, maybe im wrong but is there anything people do that you would think improper or wrong? it seems like you are always neutral when issues warrant calling a spade a spade so to speak.

im not trying to stir up trouble, but if something is wrong, im not dancing around it. its just wrong and ill say so,firmly,like a man.


datu inocalla(sp) should never be left out in that lineage either

[Bob Hubbard]

tsunaminw,
I -try- to be impartial in most matters. I try to look at all sides and remain mostly neutral so that all organizations feel welcome here to present their information. Too many places get ripped to shreads in the political crap.

In this particular matter, as I do not know Mr. Delaney, have never spoken to him, and as I am not a member of his organization, while I may disagree with him, it is not my place to tell him how to run his organization. I will state this: I have sent him several e-mails asking for his participation on this forum. I have also sent several emails asking for memorial information on Remy. I have recieved silence in reply. I would very much like to hear the 'official' answer to this and several other topics. I can not however, force hands to keyboard to type. I do not have enough facts to make a complete decision.

I meant no slight to any of the MOTTS, or DATUs in who I named or did not name. They were just examples that I knew off the top of my head. I missed 2 of the Datus, as I'm not certain what their ranks in MA are.

My -personal opinion- in this matter is that I have no problem with Mr. Bates using the title. I reviewed his web site, and between that, and information a few people have posted/emailed, I see his usage as a personal memory/tribute to GM Presas.

There is more to this, but I'm waiting on more information. I am also waiting on Mr. Kodai's input. The more I dig through the archives and other records, I begin to think I see where he is going, but I'm not sure.

Kodai. Wheres the info? :asian:

Thanks!

[bloodwood]

Sorry but Lisa knows better. A university professor and a Modern Arnis professor are clearly different and there is no way she could confuse the two. I believe her response is damage control to justify her using a title she has no right to use. And to say that anyone, in any of the Modern Arnis groups that is using the title professor, and is doing so as a tribute to PROFESSOR REMY is a bunch of bull s---. When someone in Modern Arnis says the word Professor to me I only think of one man, REMY.:angry:

[Bob Hubbard]

bloodwood,
I agree. I have a question though (its at the end of this bit). On Mr. Bates website, he is listed as follows:
Michael T. "jr. prof" Bates
Executive Director I.M.A.F.

That is an exact cut/paste from his site. I find nowhere on his page where he calls himself "Professor". (comments from website in red.)

The link from professorpresas.com to Mr. Bates site is :
Michael T. Bates M. A. A (http://www.remypresas.com/)Michael's School in Media, PA. Michael is the Executive Director of the I. M. A. F. Inc.

Again, it doesn't say "Professor".

On the same page, it has the following. Please note, this does use professor : Pallens Martial Arts: Official site of Professor Max Pallen, Grandmaster of Senkotiros, San Leandro, California


So, where does it say professor in regards to Mr. Bates and Ms. McManus? (thats not my question)

Answer : On the News page which is maintained by....Ms. McManus.
On Saturday, February 16, 2002, Grandmaster Max M. Pallen hosted the SAMA-SAMA Martial Arts Seminar in San Leandro, California. Grandmaster Jeffrey Delaney, Professor Michael T. Bates and I (Professor Lisa McManus) were invited to represented Modern Arnis at this very special event. Note: Check fast. Before they "rewrite" it
Who write it? Lisa McManus, Master Instructor of Modern Arnis, writes Camp Chronicles.
When was that stated? 2nd Annual Grandmaster Remy Presas Modern Arnis Camp in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania on February 8, 9th and 10th

So, my question is: Why did she call both herself and Mr. Bates by the title "Professor"?

TimeLine:
2-16-02 Both are Professors
2-10-02 Ms McManus is a Master Instructor of Modern Arnis. Mr. Bates is listed as host, but without a title.
Previous to this date, there are no titles attached to either individual in the news. Just a name.

Interesting isn't it?

:shrug:

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Kaith is the owner and the designer of this site. He must remain neutral at all times in this forum. If people thought that he would play favorites, they might consider this a biased forum. He alone is the ultimate word on what happens on this forum. I, on the other hand, am not bound by such restrictions.

For those who don't know me, I am Datu Tim Hartman, senior student of Grandmaster Remy Presas. I started training with him in the early 80's and have been by his side the entire time. Knowing the man he was, and having a father-son relationship with him, I feel the usage by Bates and McManus of the title Professor is an insult!

I will call a spade a spade in this case. These people are taking advantage of Remy's death. Everyone knows there is only one Professsor in Modern Arnis. Even though I have seen a certificate calling Bates a "junior" professor, it was so he would not have to use the title "MASTER BATES".

I feel that all of the IMAF Delaney directors except for Chad Dulin, are of low moral and ethical character. Time and time, again this group of people have been taking advantage of the fragile state of the Modern Arnis world. Many people have declined to make comments risking doing more damage. I have gotten many private e-mails pleading with me to do something about it. I have even had one of the MOTTs conveying to me that he thought I left the group too soon, knowing that I have a tendency of fixing problems of this nature. Of course in that case, the operative word he used was "soon" as opposed to saying that he wished I would have stayed.

Many people have misinterpreted who and what I am. I have a reputation of being a trouble maker, a traitor, a renegade. I am none of the above. I am a person who has always stood up for what I believe in and told people how I feel. I have always been a company man when it came to Remy. The thing that gave me a bad image was the fact that I was never a "yes" man. If I had a problem with Remy, I would tell him. I would try to talk about things to help fix them, not to stir up more trouble. But as we all know, like cleaning a room or an office, sometimes you make a bigger mess before you can clean up the initial one.

I don't feel that all the members of Delaney's group are bad people. As I said, Chad Dulin is a good man. Many people don't know where to go and don't want to be left in the cold. And like moving out of a neighborhood, you don't want to be hasty and move into a worse one.

As I have said in other posts, everything will come full circle and justice will prevail. I just hope we don't lose too many people in the process. Unfortunately, things usually get worse before they get better.



:soapbox: :cuss: :flammad:

[arnisador]

In which department at Norwich (http://www.norwich.edu/) is Ms. McManus a Professor? I assume her title is as an adjunct faculty member? I am surprised, frankly--an appointment of this type is generally as an Instructor, not Professor.

I did not find her listed on the web site as a member of the faculty.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Good point Arnisador!
:redeme:
:biggun: :revenge: :zap:

[tsunaminw]

lol,master bates .

ok kaith, i understand. as a moderator i can see what you must do at times,otherwise,vanilla nuetral people drive me crazy these days.

its a good thing my site is not up and running,i will make a poor impartial judge. ill have to settle for having a good site that tends to make alot of people mad,lol

[Bob Hubbard]

No problem. :)

[arnisador]

Originally posted by tsunaminw

ok kaith, i understand. as a moderator i can see what you must do at times

Kaith is in fact not only a moderator but is also the Administrator, meaning that he runs the software and selected the other three moderators who are therefore his assistants in this regard. I respect his attempts to be impartial so that all feel welcome here! It seems to be working well.

[tsunaminw]

yes,wrong choice of words on my part arnisador,i knew what you meant tho.

[Susumu Kodai]

You have found the clues. Very good. The eyes begin to open. Now, dig further. Only by examining the information yourself, can one make a conclusion. You must find your own way. I am but a guide.

Here, more hints for you to follow:

Look for a recent "Who's Who in Modern Arnis" that was published within the last 2 years. Very few of the recently revield 'players' were in fact listed there. Delaney was not among those listed.

Is it customary for a part time teacher of a gym class to be called professor? I thought you required tennure? (is that word?)...or has American education fallen so far?

How can someone who was a Brown Belt 2 years ago, suddenly be a 4th degree Black? Is there serious rank-inflation here, or can she truely 'walk the walk' as you say?


There is more. Spoon feed you I must, for the truth is great, but to find it yourself is the only true way.


I remain, Kodai.

[Bob Hubbard]

Very interesting Kodai......

Interesting too on your rapid improvement in grammer.....

Very interesting, indeed.......

:shrug:


Back on original tangent....
another question : Does Ms McManus also maintain their website?

:asian:

[Guro Harold]

She indeed does maintain the news portion of site.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Susumu Kodai


Is it customary for a part time teacher of a gym class to be called professor? I thought you required tennure?

It does not require tenure, however, it is typical for such a person to be an Instructor, not a Professor.

[Susumu Kodai]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Very interesting Kodai......

Interesting too on your rapid improvement in grammer.....

Very interesting, indeed.......



Oh, you no likey how i speekee? :waah: :2xbird: :EG:

We are all seekers of Truth. Some lead. Others Follow. I point the way.

The conclusion is : Jeff Delany is a Fraud. He is not a worthy successor to the only true Professor of Modern Arnis, GrandMaster Remy Amador Presas. Mr. Delany awards inflated ranks and titles while promoting a watered down version of the art that Remy spent his life on.

I point to the information sources. You must go, read for yourselves the information. And then, draw own conclusions from that which you read.

When one controls the source of information, one can control everything.

Know this: There is more to this tale. More information awaits.


I remain, Kodai.

[Dan Anderson]

Sorry Kodai,
You don't point the way. You dick around. If you pointed the way you'd just say, "Here is where you can find _____." Please be more forthcoming or just be forthgoing.
Dan :soapbox:

[Susumu Kodai]

Master Anderson,

I will attempt to point more clearly.

I will address Ms. McManus first:

Based on Kaiths comment above, he took time to look.

TimeLine:
2-16-02 Both are Professors
2-10-02 Ms McManus is a Master Instructor of Modern Arnis. Mr. Bates is listed as host, but without a title.
Previous to this date, there are no titles attached to either individual in the news. Just a name.

For those too busy to look further, I will spell out things, with links:

Revised TimeLine:

10-14-2000
Lisa McManus listed as 2nd BlackBelt at Fall Camp (http://web.archive.org/web/20001027042323/www.modernarnis.com/news.htm)

2-13-01 Ms McManus listed as 3rd (http://web.archive.org/web/20010409185656/modernarnis.com/news.htm)

10-20-01 Ms Mcmanus is now a Master instructor. (http://web.archive.org/web/20020308164359/http://www.professorpresas.com/news.htm)

2-10-02 Ms McManus is a Master Instructor of Modern Arnis.

2-16-02 Ms McManus is a Professor.



I ask, what is her current official rank?

According to this:
http://web.archive.org/web/20001204160000/www.modernarnis.com/news.htm
In conjunction with this ceremony, several of the above named recipients were also promoted the award of Master rank having been promoted to 5th degree black belt status: (1) Jeff Delaney, (2) Chuck Gauss, (3) Gaby Roloff (Germany), (4) Ken Smith.

which is taken from the "press release" issued by mr. Delaney after his assumption of the throne, a "Master" in Modern Arnis is a 5th.

Where and when did she test for her 5th? Or was it a back room promotion, same as Mr. Delaneys promotion to 5th, and Grandmaster?

All of this information is taken from the 'official' IMAF web site. It was posted by them, by Ms McManus herself, so there can be no accusations of 'editing'.

There is no mention of her being promoted to 5th. There is no mention of her being promoted to Master. There is no mention of her being promoted to "professor". So, either she has been 'awarded' paper titles, or has the disrespect to give herself the title of "Master" and "Professor" based on the fact that she teached a glorified gym class. Either way, she disrespects the legacy of the man who without, she would not have been named "Arnis Instructor of the Year" in 1999. She is talented, but still, dishonorable.

I will address Mr. Delaney shortly.


I remain, Kodai.

[Bob Hubbard]

:shrug:
Can anyone fill in Mr Kodais blanks?

I mean, before someone threatens to shove his riddles up his backside?

:soapbox:

(I am rapidly losing my patience for Trolls)

Kodai, no more riddles. Put your bloody facts up.


:flammad: :rpo: :miffer:

[thekuntawman]

no offense to anyone, but i like this guy kodai. he is not just gossiping, but he is giving you the truth to see for yourself. and i respect that. he's not just saying things but he s showing you where he heard that information.

[Red Blade]

I went to the links that Susumu Kodai posted and have also been doing some of my own research. I've found some interesting things. if you go to this link http://web.archive.org/web/20001027042323/www.modernarnis.com/news.htm
you will see the follow about the 2000 Michigan summer camp written by McManus:


Sunday was an early morning as the Black Belts finished taping counter to counter and trapping drills. Gaby Roloff was given the honor of conducting the test in which 38 people participated including 20 testing for Black Belt or higher. Their performance and intensity were incredible and energizing. Following the test Tim Hartman was promoted to the rank of 6th Degree Black Belt making him the highest ranking practitioner in the United States.

Maybe it's me but it seems that Datu Hartman was and still is the the highest ranking practitioner in the United States. Seeing that the promotions that followed were only to 5th degree. After reading this I noticed that the summer camp listing chronological order pushing it to the bottom of the page.

I was reading a black belt mag article on "Modern Arnis' Next Generation" The names that came up were:

Eric Alexander
Dan Anderson
Mike Donovan
Tim Hartman
Jaye Spiro
Rick Ward

No mention of the Tapi Tapi group or any of the ther people who have come on to the scene since GM Remy's death. I've looked at old magazines and used the archive search engine. One name comes up time and time again, Datu Hartman. His name came up a lot on and off the IMAF site. The Tapi Tapi group have only been listed on the IMAF site.

I have also seen Dan Anderson's name come up a couple times. Seeing that he is doing a seminar with Hartman it tells me that they must have respect for each other. Anderson was a Modern Arnis camp host up until 1996. This also gives me the impression that we was active.

After everything I've seen and read, I keep asking myself one question. Where have they been? There is no quetion that many people have worked with GM Presas over the years. The quetion is how many people stayed with him.

My .02 cents
Red Blade

[Guro Harold]

It appears that Lisa McManus has now removed the title of "Professor" in her self-description of the Sama Sama festival on the www.professorpresas.com web site!!!

:)

[Dan Anderson]

To Kodai and Red Blade:
Kodai - thank you for the posted facts. I am not interested in following hints thru the net to find out what is up. I like the straight links and facts. It does look like Lisa Mc came up through the ranks at record speed, didn't she. Are you coming to Buffalo so I can meet you? :cheers:

Red Blade - Lisa Mc posted that Tim was promoted in 2000 and was the highest ranked practitioner in the US. I was promoted to 6th degree in 1992 so Lisa Mc was wrong. The fact that here are titles involved besides the numerical ranking throws a curve ball into the heirarchy a bit. Now that there is also the title of Master Of Tapi-Tapi, another curve ball has been thrown. :shrug:

Tim and I get along well. :argue: We have a mutual respect which is based on open communication as well as our love for the art. We "bullbait" each other mercilessly on the subject of heirarchy and even have nicknames for the other based on our titles (No, I won't tell you what they are).

Yes, I have been active since 1980. In 1995, I remarried into an established family of 6 so my travelling curtailed by quite a bit. Heck, even Prof. Presas thought I had retired. :confused:
If you look in the early articles on Prof. Presas, You'll find that I am mentioned more than just a few times. :soapbox:

Yes, Tim and I will be doing a seminar in Portland, Oregon in June and I hope many to follow. I'll be in Buffalo for his gig so I'm lookin g forward to meeting as many of you as possible. :cheers:
Dan
PS - Lisa Mc has taken off the title of Professor. Good. If you see me titled as "Professsor," it is my Karate title, not my Modern Arnis title.

[Susumu Kodai]

Mr. Anderson,
Thank you for your understanding. Sadly, my work will keep me away from Buffalo for a while. But perhaps next year.

I have no challenge with you, however I must ask a question. It is my understanding that in that article, Ms. McManus was quoting GM Presas in his announcement that Tim Hartman was the highest "tested" black belt in at least the last decade.
(My apologies, archive.org appears to have problem today so am unable to provide link)

You state that you received your 6th degree in 1992. That is only 8 years prior to the referenced camp.

When did you test for your 6th degree in Modern Arnis?

I mean no offence, but perhaps the question here is around the word "tested"?

I am aware that there are several 6th degree Modern Arnis black belts...but how many tested for them, and how many simply had them awarded?

I will address Mr. Hartman at a later date...This "Renegade" I have many questions for...


Back to Ms. McManus and Mr. Dishonorable Delaney - The article referenced by RedBlade was altered repeatedly over the following months with Mr. Hartman's references slowly removed until it was as if he did not exist. This was all done while Grandmaster was alive. One might think that Dishonorable Delaney had his own agenda, and was working to remove Mr. Hartman in order to control the organization. This my conclusion, I can not provide references at this time.

I am happy to hear that MsMcManus has some honor, but as has been said, she should have known better. You sir, show proper respect for Grandmaster Presas. It is good to know that some of his students are honorable.

I remain, Kodai.

[Bob Hubbard]

Its nice to know they changed it. Now if they would just be kind enough to geta warm body or 3 of theirs over here, it would be real cool.

I'll definately see ya at the camp (http://wmarnis.com/camp) Dan. Hopefully it'll have stopped snowing by then. :D


:asian:

[Dan Anderson]

Dear Kodai,
If "tested" is the question, you imply that Prof. Presas had a system which had a systematic, step-by-step progression so that one could test for further belt ranks after Black. Sadly enough to say, he didn't. In this manner, RP was "old school," much in the manner of teachers back in the Philippines and the orient prior to Dr. Kano instituting the belt system first found in Judo. They awarded certificates of proficiency in the orient and in the Philippines, the classmates knew who was first, second, etc. in the pecking order. Do your history research. America is one of the worst places on earth as to legitimacy issues. Hell, it took a cocky, oriental kid to tell Americans not to blindly follow tradition. the kid was Bruce Lee. Did I test? No. Was I a political promotion? Ask me to my face. I wish RP was here so you could ask him to his face. Tim Hartman wasn't asked to test. He wanted to test after seeing many political promotions and wanted to get his by sweat. That was his choice. My choice was to train so that the politicos would know I trained. Two different ways of handling that problem. We both earned our ranks.

Check out the article in Black Belt magazine several years back with the sidebar called, "The Next Generation." It was written by his student, Paul O'Grady, at Tim's request and nowhere in there does it state anything about political promotions and the like where my name or any of the others named are concerned.

Now Sparky, that might sound a little confrontational but it almost sounds like there is a veiled attempt to create a little animosity between "tested" and untested Black Belts. Hmmm. Tim and I have talked at length about his test and he is very proud of testing in front of the Professor. At no time has he made even the slightest hint or comment about my rank in any kind of negative manner. We have our own reasons for what we have done over the years and we get along just fine.

And yes, I have shown my teacher the proper respect for years.

Kaith -
I know it is frustrating regarding the MOTT's and JD. Neither are very communicative at this time. From what I get from a couple of the MOTTs, they are in a reformation phase since the departure of JD. I have emailed JD and Lisa Mc and have talked to JD once on the phone and have not heard word one from Lisa Mc. The Motts are very serious in carrying out the directives RP laid out for them prior to his death. At this time I don't know what they are but I am attempting to find out. I have been in communication with Randi Shea and Chuck Gauss regarding the aims and directives of IMAF (gorup). At this time there is the apparancy that independents aren't in the picture but I may be wrong.

Personally, I know the route my teacher took. He learned a system and then went on to better his skill both in the Philippines and in the US. He never stopped. He reached outside the art he learned, Balintawak, to other forms of arnis and other forms of martial arts to better his skill. I take my teacher's route. All for now, more at the camp in Buffalo.
Yours,
Dan

[Susumu Kodai]

I wish RP was here so you could ask him to his face.
I believe we all do :(


We both earned our ranks.
I will not disagree with you.

No confrontation was intended, only a clarification, which you achieved.

My apologies. I meant no insult. I do not, nor have I had a problem with you sir.

It is those who dishonor the memory of Grandmaster Presas that are our target.


I take my teacher's route.
In this sir, I believe you do him a great honor. I saw your earlier post with the message "Danny, Get Involved". Do so sir. Keep the art alive. Your books are very good. I look forward to more.

:asian: Peace.

I remain, Kodai.

[tsunaminw]

hartman is highest ranking modern arnis player in the us? lol. now thats funny

[arnisador]

Originally posted by tsunaminw

hartman is highest ranking modern arnis player in the us? lol. now thats funny

I believe that what Mr. Hartman has said is that he's the highest ranked active, tested Modern Arnis black belt. See:
http://www.wmarnis.com/resume.html

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by arnisador



I believe that what Mr. Hartman has said is that he's the highest ranked active, tested Modern Arnis black belt. See:
http://www.wmarnis.com/resume.html

Yes, I use the word tested. It was GM Remy that said I was his #1 guy in the US at the end of the test in 2000. This is why Lisa wrote it in the Camp Chronicals. She was just quoting Remy.

[tsunaminw]

i understand. thanks for clarifying. my apologies for seeming rude

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by tsunaminw

hartman is highest ranking modern arnis player in the us? lol. now thats funny

Why don't you explain your comment.

[Dan Anderson]

Yo! Folks! This has nothing to do with the last comment but I am back up on the net -
www.danandersonkarate.com
FINALLY!
Dan
And now the news. I am curious about the humor of tsunaminw's comment as well.

[Tapps]

I wrote the " Next Generation Article" that has been mentioned in this thread. The goal in writing this article was to enhance the profile of the art and help secure it's continuation.This is my take.

Tim Hartman gave me the idea for the article but I submitted everything to Professor Presas before Black Belt ever saw it. He approved the selection and what I had written. I wrote it on the condition that I would print nothing he disagreed with. Ensuring his art would outlive him was something Professor felt strongly about.

Black Belt magazine then took my 18 pages and cut it down to a sidebar. This is very much there right but it caused a little bit of confusion.

The sidebar ran along with an article by Jeff Delaney on the Professor. It featured photos of Remy using JD and Chuck Gauss as partners. I believe JD was a dalawa and Chuck was a tatlo at the time (I'm not 100 % so don't quote me).

The next generation list was NOT intended to be comprehensive. It listed the top practitioners by geographical region. Some very respected people were not included because they were in the same region as someone ranked higher. ( Example: Chuck Gauss was not on the list because he lives in the same state as Jaye Spiro who outranked him.) This was nessasary because I had to draw a line somewhere. Geographical boundaries seemed the fairest way at the time.

My point here is: All six of those individuals were, at the time of publication, among the top students of Professor Presas. I know this for a fact because I personally asked him. Others were very active and I do not mean to disrespect that. My 2 cents is that these six should be high on any list of Remy's top students.

[tsunaminw]

datu hartman


i replied earlier but dont see it posted.

ignore me,i dont know what im talking about. i misunderstood what someone else said, and came off sounding like a smart ass ,it was not my intention.

i understand you are the highest tested rank,no problems there. i was sick for a week and must have been grumpy when i posted ,when i reread my post yesterday,i realised i sounded like a jackass. my apologies

i think i came off differently than i intended twice in this thread,i should quit while im ahead. lol

[Bob Hubbard]

tsunaminw,
Excessive NyQuil usage will do that. :) (Man, I must be doing that stuff by the case, huh?)

Re: missing post - we had 2 minor hiccups. hopefully the servers burping less.


:)

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by tsunaminw

datu hartman


i replied earlier but dont see it posted.

ignore me,i dont know what im talking about. i misunderstood what someone else said, and came off sounding like a smart ass ,it was not my intention.

i understand you are the highest tested rank,no problems there. i was sick for a week and must have been grumpy when i posted ,when i reread my post yesterday,i realised i sounded like a jackass. my apologies

i think i came off differently than i intended twice in this thread,i should quit while im ahead. lol

No problem. I've had those days myself.
Tim H.


:cheers:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by tsunaminw

i think i came off differently than i intended twice in this thread,i should quit while im ahead.

It's the nature of this medium--no face-to-face contact, no body language, no voice inflection. It's going to happen to all of us sooner or later!

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Renegade



No problem. I've had those days myself.


Indeed--in fact, I'm keeping a list. Starting with you stepping on my glasses, continuing through my fractured rib, and going on to the present day.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by arnisador



Indeed--in fact, I'm keeping a list. Starting with you stepping on my glasses, continuing through my fractured rib, and going on to the present day.

You better have a big hard drive!

:toilclaw: :bird: :iws: :idunno: :moon: :hammer:

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Tapps

I wrote the " Next Generation Article" that has been mentioned in this thread. The goal in writing this article was to enhance the profile of the art and help secure it's continuation.This is my take.


Black Belt magazine then took my 18 pages and cut it down to a sidebar. This is very much there right but it caused a little bit of confusion.


My point here is: All six of those individuals were, at the time of publication, among the top students of Professor Presas. I know this for a fact because I personally asked him. Others were very active and I do not mean to disrespect that. My 2 cents is that these six should be high on any list of Remy's top students.

Hey Tapps,
You should post the entire 18 pages or at least make it available for someone (such as myself :D ) to pick up a copy in Buffalo in May.
Dan :cheers:

[Parker]

I was given the honorific (horrific?) Durable by my current playmates, for my ability to take a beating that will kill most men and get up with vigorous effort.

I have a couple Remy Prensas T-shirts, so is that like meeting him for title purposes?

Guys, it's not what you are called, it's how you can mix it up and what you can impart. I do not do "martial arts" for this reason but instead close combat. No belts for me, no titles, but you can call me "grassmole" if I bruise you :soapbox:

:fart: This has to be the coolest smiley ever!

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I'm glad you found our site. Looking forward to your input.

:drinkbeer :drink2tha :cheers: :jediduel: :flushed:

[Brian Johns]

Hey,

Who is this Renegade/Gatorade ????:D :D :samurai: :uzi: :flame:

WOOOOO!!!

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by WhoopAss

Hey,

Who is this Renegade/Gatorade ????:D :D :samurai: :uzi: :flame:

WOOOOO!!!

Brian,
everyone knows that the Renegade is (Dramatic Pause), Tim Hartman!



:biggun: :samurai: :armed:

[Brian Johns]

Renegade,

I know who you are......I was just yanking your chain (must be the MAO influence here !!).

Hope that things are going great.

Take care,

WOOOOOOO!!!!!

:cheers: :drink2tha

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I know. I was busting your chops too.



:drinkbeer :ladysman: :drinkbeer

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Renegade

everyone knows that the Renegade is (Dramatic Pause), Tim Hartman!

I thought that Lorenzo Lamas (http://www.angelfire.com/nc/bobby6k/renpix.html) did it better.

[tigerstorm]

Gentleman,
I do not study Arnis and so I may be out of line by entering into the talk, and I am by no means defending a fifth degree ALLOWING himself to be addressed as Professor, but I would like to contribute alitte if I may. Grandmaster William K.S. Chow was know as Professor, and in his thinking he allowed practitioners to be associate Professor at 5th and Professor at 6th. Now as I said I do not study Arnis and am not familiar with your traditions all Im offering is that perhaps if this man we're speaking of, is now not so highly thought of he is trying to branch off on his own and in doing so he is changing what you view as correct in title distribution. This is both statement and question at the same time. Could that be the direction he is going?
Tigerstorm

[arnisador]

Modern Arnis is new enough that we are still making traditions! With the proliferation of organizations, who knows what's right. Some are doing away with the zeroth degree black belt and starting at first degree, for example, which will cause confusion, and there are more titles than one can count. It's a mess!

[tigerstorm]

So like I said before could it be that this man is trying to branch out on his own to make a name for himself and, now lets go further, get himself those "all important titles"? In making a student who wears a fifth be titled professor wouldnt that make it more exeptable for the higher to have legitimate claim, in there minds anyway, to higher titles? I guess Im just wondering myself why you would take a tradition, if that be the right word and change it when the current tradition isnt very old. The only explanation that I can come up with is that hes tryign to make his own version of modern Arnis.
Tigerstorm

[Bob Hubbard]

Thats possible, though I haven't heard anything to that extent myself. I personally believe that the main issue here is one of timing. In a year or 2, maybe then it would be seen as ok, but in this case, the new profs were showing up less than 6 months after the GM died. Alot of MA folks think it was tacky.

Sorta like getting married a month after ya buried your partner...it just -seems- wrong.

My opinion. That, and $1 will get ya a lottery ticket in NY. :D

:asian:

[arnisador]

Kaith has put it well. It simply seems inappropriate for others to use the title Professor this soon after the Professor's passing.

[tigerstorm]

Ok Ive got alittle new info now. The Grandmaster in death could have promoted? This both question and statement. I know that lately I have been hearing alot of this idea, my Instructor has an interesting in branching out into his own system and has made it clear verbally ( and plans to written) that the system when created will be passed on to the next choice, not highest rank necassarily, (although in this case yes) but also in his passing he will have it documented that certain students namely the one to inherit will be promoted at the time of his passing. I know Im grasping at straws but with the new info it almost seemed to fit. So its my last thought I think on why it would or for that matetr could happen.
Tigerstorm

[Bob Hubbard]

If you read back through the Modern Arnis forum, you'll see just how -hot- the situation has been, and still is. Sometimes, there seems to be so much political play going on in the MA world, as to make the Kenpo situation after Ed Parker Sr.'s death to appear mild by comparision.

Its a mess. :(

There is a will, and also a press release, and other postings and printings, that in each revision, only cloud the issue more.

I have seen information that indicates 3 of the Datus were to lead. (of course, each item contradicts the others). At one point there were 2 successors, then 2 co-grandmasters, now, 2 grandmasters. We've got the MOTTS, Datus, various Masters, etc. (The titles are a bit hard to follow at times, as they don't usually follow rank). Organizations have split, formed, vanished, re-emmerged, etc. Hell, Cousin Nell just called. Shes doing a Seminar in Hackensack with John Boy (whos a 12th ya know) :D

I'm saying this in jest, but in all seriousness, its confusing.

What Mr. Delaneys organization is doing is for the most part, public. The WHY is an unknown. I wish someone of rank from his organization would take the time and pop on over for a while, and publicly say "this is what we are doing, and this is why".

It removes alot of the pissing thats going on. And might let us get back to whats really important.

Learning and preserving the art that GM Presas shared with us.

MartialTalk is fortunate to have members from most of the MA organizations as its contributors, both publicly and anonymously. The more input, the better informed we can all be.

:asian:

[Guro Harold]

Quote from David Hoffman, VP, IMAF; long time student of and first United States official Black Belt awarded from GM Remy Presas:

Professor Lee Lowery
In the early days we knew him as Sifu Lee. He is an example, like Professor Dan Anderson, of someone who was awarded the Professor of Martial Arts title because of their seniority and accomplishment. The title was external to Modern Arnis as we did not use the title except as a nickname of affection for our teacher: The Grandmaster. Unlike some arts that do use the title formally.

EndQuote

From David Hoffman's post to the Were are they now?" thread and from a conversation that I had with him in Raleigh a couple of weeks ago, it appears that the title of Professor is an external title to Modern Arnis and only was a term of affection for GM Remy Presas.

Palusut

[Dan Anderson]

Dear Palusut,
I was introduced to Remy Presas as "Professor Presas." To me, this was his title much like someone would be named "Sensei Smith."

Dear Kaith,
I am a devoted follower of Cousin Nell AND John Boy so I take your comment as an insult! :fart: Take that! :barf: And that! I'd horsewhip you if I had a horse! :cuss:

Dear Tigerstorm,
Yes, it is sad that this has reared its ugly head but it has. The key thng is to train and to not take the rest of the muck too seriously...unless you declare me as the personification of pure Modern Arnis. Then you should fight to your (not mine) last breath defending my good name. And it is a good name. I like it.
:D

All for now - see y'all in Buffalo.
Dan :cheers:

[Guro Harold]

Hi Dan,

Yes I agree with you, the title of "Professor" was a term of respect as well as a term of affection from his students.

Best regards,

Palusut

PS: Mr Anderson, you don't go by the name, "Neo", do you? If so, picture attached:D .

[Guro Harold]

Sorry Dan,

Here is picture.

Kaith,

When "Preview Post" is selected, attached picture is lost.

Best regards,

Palusut

[Bob Hubbard]

Dan,
Its not easy being green. :D

Palusut,
I'll look into that. It shouldn't disappear. Hmm.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Palusut

it appears that the title of Professor is an external title to Modern Arnis and only was a term of affection for GM Remy Presas.

This was always my impression as well. He had taught at the secondary and college level in the Philippines I understand and was always a big fan of higher education.

[Parker]

I once had a BJJ guy I met at the local playpen (MA school) up from Brazil try to call me Professor. I had no idea what the hell he was talking about, as I am a close combat guy, not a martial artist and will likely never use that term for myself. In any case, I guess the term professor refers to instructor in his (Gracie-esque) style.

Really nice guy too, very respectful, yada.

If the guy in the header of this thread wants to call himself Master, and also want ME to do so, well, :roflmao: Renegade can tell you I really do not call anyone Master, it is not in me to do so. Respect for the instructor is not as much a given as earned, thru demeanor, attitude, ability to convey useful and helpful information and respect for the student.

I have been in this game for a mere 14 years now and about 1994 learned what a good instructor was and a bad one. I will not put up with a bad one and have since been on first name basis with all of my instructors.

Had I attended the 2000 camp I could have met Prof Prensas. I am sorry I did not attend, work conflicts with life unfortunately. Remy Prensas earned that title well and truly. To have a guy who has put in 30% of the time without the thoroughly extensive background I know Professor Remy Prensas to have had using the same title and introducing himself as such, arrogant.

I also used to get unsolicited emails from his group weekly offering to sell me stuff like videotaopes. :biggun: A few pointed questions about who and why, they stopped. Again, it is the arrogance of the assumption of the title, and the inference that I would care rather than having it conveyed either by a governing body, a higher ranking true master or even a large affectionate cotiere of long-time devoted students that is at issue.

I remain fully interested in Modern Arnis and hope to see it develop further in a truly warry fashion, for knives and sticks and all those nasty locks/ breaks/ gouges are not designed for love and kisses. :ripper: :mp5: Isn't all this warry stuff fun?


Parker

[Shugo]

I too am amazed of the use of the "Professor" title on JD's site/organization. To me...a Professor comes with decades of martial arts experience. Like a Grandmaster...but one who constantly improves their style/art.

All true arts are the same. The styles are just different ways of teaching.

But back to the JD thing...
I can't believe that he calls himself Grandmaster...and now a Professor. Not even Remy A. Presas' Children call themselves Grandmasters or Professors. When meeting & training with JD in the past...I liked the way he was with the students...training and helping everyone out. But when Remy Presas got ill...it's like JD got power crazed or something.

Has anyone seen some of the major Martial Arts magazines? JD has put out 1/2 page ads and saying he's the "Designated Grand Master"...
Hmm...what does that tell you... "designated" :shrug:
:ticked:

[Cruentus]

Holy crap, this is a pretty long talk. I haven't even had time to read them all, and I don't have much time for a reply, unfortunatily, so please excuse all gramatical and spelling errors.

Let's just say that I'm a young friend of Professors; I'm only 24, but I have been with professor since I was 15, when I went to my very first seminar in MI. Now, I don't know much, but I have seen a lot in terms of status, and Ranking under Professor, so listen and learn.

Professor was a genius in technique, but he never really understood belts, or 'American' ranking systems, as I'll call it. He was also about the nicest man you'd ever meet. Every-one was his "Good Friend". If he just met you, and had to intoduce you to someone a minute later, he'd be introducing you, in his thick Filipino accent, "Dis is my bery good friend (so-and-so) from Chi-cago (or some other city)." Those who knew him know exactly what I'm talking about. He was so kind, and generous that this unfortunatily effected the way he would rank people.

It is my understanding that when he was up-in-coming in the Philipines, there wasn't a belt system like there is in the U.S.; everyone just knew who was good.

So, he comes to the U.S., and he has to basically create a belt system under a culture with a completely different mentality about rank then what he was used to. He never completely caught on.

'Caught on' to what, you ask? Caught on to how much emphasis people would put on a belt, rank, or even titles and that in many peoples eyes this status would outweigh anything else regarding technique, skill, or the art in general. And as it has shown since his death, a title would even be more important to some then the genuine continuation of his art in itself.

Another thing about Professor that many of his Friends and students will remember is that he was a jokester, and he just plain liked to make people feel good, and (as he would put it) "smile". One time at my house in Michigan he met my little brother Jimmy, a 13 yr old kid. Jimmy was the smallest kid in his grade, and had never met Professor before. Professor wacked the stick around w/ him a few times, patted him on the head, and told him he was very good. You see, he said that to a lot of people. He told him that if he trained, then soon he would be grandmaster, or least maybe better then his Brothers (refering to me and my other little Bro. Nate). It was a good time, and we all got a good laugh. Does that mean that Jimmy, who will be 16 in September, is to be the next Grandmaster? Of course not! He even told me a few times that he wanted me to carry the art, and that someday I would. Did I take his words ans set them in stone? No! He said those things cause I was/am young w/ potential, and he wanted to make me feel good. So, I guess that's the difference; I understand the kind of man he was and that he just wanted to make people happy more then anything, and that when he said certain things, he didn't expect it to be taken as Gospel. That was another thing that he never got; that some would take what he had said as Gospel. He never realized how much of an Icon he was. This was also what made him such a great man.

Did you know that I know a guy who professor gave his Lakan Tatlo to in a train, with no test or anything, just because the guy was helping him out with a transportation issue. ARE YOU ALL GETTING IT!?

Profesor was just a nice guy who happend to be extremely proficient and deadly. He wanted people to train and to get good, but more importantly, to have fun, and to be friends. He hoped, or more like assumed that people would focus on training and learning, not on status or title.

Unfortunatily, people used him, and they used his kindness. Don't get me wrong, there are those who earned their rank. There are also those who followed profesor, brown-nosed, pouted, excluded others, and @$$-kissed their way into their status. They used our beloved teacher, and that is abhorrable! They would whine, and professor would give them a status to make them happy. Why? Because he really thought they were his good friends who wouldn't use him. Unfortunatily, they were using him all along.

And now what do we have? We have those who stayed true to Remy, and even though I'm young with lifetimes more to learn, I'd like to think I'm one of those who stayed true. Then, there's the others. They used the Professor on his death bed, and now they're giving themselves new titles. Am I suprised...No. Angry, but not suprised.

Well, I guess the moral is, the ones who possess the true "status" that they claim will show it through their technique, just like the old days. The others will hopefully fall by the wayside.

I'm out of time. Hopefully we all learned something...I know that I sure did.

[Icepick]

PAUL

:D

[Dieter]

It is my understanding that when he was up-in-coming in the Philipines, there wasn't a belt system like there is in the U.S.; everyone just knew who was good.

This is not correct.
In his book that was published in 1973, so before he left the Philippines for the US, he already had his belt system printed.
But I agree that he wanted to maker feel people happy and that he was an exeptional man in many ways.


Datu Dieter Knüttel

[Roland]

You just hit the nail right on the head! :cheers:
That has got to be one of the best, and most honest posts I have yet to read on Martial Talk.
I do not think anyone could have said it any better!


:jedi1:

[arnisador]

Great post and I agree with most of it. But, as a high-ranking black belt in Shotokan and Judo, I think the Professor must have had some understanding of the belt ranking system even while in the Philippines.

I do agree that the Professor gave out rank very easily and for all sorts of help that had little to do with the martial arts, and that people took advantage of this.

[Cruentus]

It is my understanding that when he was up-in-coming in the philipines, there wasn't a belt system like there is in the U.S.; everyone just knew who was good.

Hey, look, I qouted myself!:rolleyes: :D

Anyway's, everything I say there is true, but apparently I need to clarify. When I said "up-in-coming", I was refering to Professor's training days. After he wrote his book, he was already well established in the Philipines. This isn't "up-in-coming" to me; when he wrote his book he was already there.

As I said, I was refering to his training day's. After training with his grandfather in his family style until he was 14, he traveled to different area's of the Philipines, learning and training in different styles. I've heard a few of his stories about the old Balintawak day's, and so forth. I'm sure some of you may have too. Well, trust me, he didn't talk about who was what belt. Sorry to ruin the fantasy for some people, but I highly doubt that when training with his Grandfather, in Balintawak, or in any other form of Kali/Escrima/Arnis (or whatever) that they were all Gi-ed and belted up. I even have reason to believe that after he nationalized the art, they probably didn't walk around wearing belts during regular training sessions. The photo shoots, however, were always a different story.

Yes, he did train in systems like Judo and Karate, where a strict belt system was incorported. But still, the rank systems are different in the states. If you read the book even Antes 1-6 just wore white, then 3 levels of a blue rimmed brown belt, then red rimmed black. Gee....I count only 3 actual belts there, as opposed to a different color or stripe to denote every rank.

You see, the real difference is the US is very capitalist about everything. I'm not trying to start a political arguement, I'm just stating what I believe is fact. We silly Americans are used too having everything packaged and sold to us. Belts, rank, uniforms, patches, etc., is all a way for people to package and sell the Martial Arts here in the states. Now, don't get me wrong...I like a cool T-shirt, or even a cool certificate just as much as the next person. I don't mean to deminish that. That's not why I train, though. Sure, everyone else will SAY that these "things" aren't why they train either, but ask yourselves this: how many would have quit long ago if there wasn't the merchindising, and the ranking, and the status? Out of the higher ranked, I'll bet that many of the self-titled masters would have been the first to go.

So, I meant what I said, and I still do. Using rank and status OVER training and skill, even to market and capitalize, was not Professors way. Period.

Sorry to bore you w/ another long one :erg:, but I wanted to clarify. My last entry was only to make a vital point. I also want to say that I don't really want to argue :argue: play semantics, a history game, or a political game, because if one focuses on that, then I'm afraid one will miss the point.

;)
PAUL
Rochester, MI

[arnisador]

Originally posted by PAUL

but I highly doubt that when training with his Grandfather, in Balintawak, or in any other form of Kali/Escrima/Arnis (or whatever) that they were all Gi-ed and belted up.

Indeed, I believe that even today Balintawak does not even certify instructors, let alone grant belts--one simply trains in it.

I fully agree about rank/titles being given out to easily here and there having been too many who seemed overly interested in them.

[Terry]

:) Paul:

"You got it, Baby!"

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Terry

:) Paul:

"You got it, Baby!"

Welcome aboard Terry!

Tim Hartman

:cheers:

[Terry]

Tim,

Thank you sir! I couldn't help myself. The insight of this young man, and his understanding of Professor and his motives was too right-on to ignore.

Folks might do well to read his post and try to obsorb and take to heart the truth contained therein.

By the way, congrats on your MA instructor of the year award!

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Thanks!

[arnisador]

Great to see Terry here--one of the nicest martial artists you'll ever meet.

[Cruentus]

True that!

Terry's da man!:ultracool

I appreciate what you said above, by the way. Thank you.:)

Definatily welcome aboard!!!

:D

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by arnisador

In which department at Norwich (http://www.norwich.edu/) is Ms. McManus a Professor? I assume her title is as an adjunct faculty member? I am surprised, frankly--an appointment of this type is generally as an Instructor, not Professor.

I did not find her listed on the web site as a member of the faculty.

I know this is an old post that I am replying to however I do want to point out that Arnisador is correct, Ms. McManus may have an Adjunct Instructorship at Norwich University and as such is not entitled to use the academic designation of "Professor". However, there is another possibility, she was hired as a part-time faculty member, through the Physical education Department, specificly to teach the Modern Arnis course. In that case, she is not an Adjunct Faculty member and would most certinly not have an academic title of "Professor". It is generally the custom for an adjunct designation to be given to a person who is teaching on a part-time basis at one college and is still maintaining a full time teaching position in a diofferent depatmant at the same college or holds a faculty position at another college... if Ms. McManus, does not meet one of the the latter two condition of employment, then is Very Unlikely that she would be considered as an "Adjunct" at Norwich University.

This information is provided based on my understanding of the use of academic terminology and titles from my 34 years as a faculty member at 5 colleges in the United States. I will acknowledge that Norwich university might have handled he hiring and titles differently than I have experienced in my career, so do not just assume that I am absolutely correct with regard to this matter.

The bottom line for me... Ms. McManus is not qualified to use the academic title of "Professor" merely because is teaching at a college! Her incorrect usage of the title as a student of Modern Arnis does not even merit discussion.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
Professor of Sociology
Adjunct Professor of Physical Education
Erie Community College. Orchard Park, NY

[Dan Anderson]

Hi Terry,
Long time no see. Great to hear you up on line.
Dan Anderson
:eek: Whoa - with this last post I am now an orange belt.

[Terry]

:) Hi Dan,

It's good to see you here, also! I've really appreciated your communications with Dan and David. Now, we're getting somewhere!

I have difficulty communicating in an open forum, so I will probably get in touch with you with your e-mail address.

It has been refreshing reading some of the more (what's the word?) "mature" attitudes starting to come to the surface in the recent posts.

Paul's insights blew me away. These insights were garnered over a ten year (or longer) period of time of being around Professor, which starts him off a quite a young man.

Sorry to ramble, but good to talk to you, and continue to do well!

Terry

[Mao]

Hey Terry,
How great to hear your voice! :) I am looking forward to seeing you in Mich. soon. I'm glad your here...................and there. :)


It is also good to see Paul here. How ya' doin' Paul. How's Nate and the WWF?

Dan McConnell
Modern Arnis of Ohio (that's mao)
Hilliard Budo Center

[Cruentus]

"Ladies and Gentleman.....the most electrifying entertainer of the M.A.O...........DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN MCOOOOOOOOOOONEEEEEEEEELL."

THE CROWD ROARS: "YHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!"

"Can you SMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELL what the Modern Arnis of Ohio is Cookin'!!!!!"

:D There you go, Dan. Your very own WWF Wrestling enterance!

I'm doin' good, man! I sent you a private message. Did ya get it!?Don't worry, I didn't send any nudie links.....this time (JK):lol:

Nate is doing O.K.. He is actually considered a Pro-wrestler now; he works the independent circuit in Michigan and Canada. I finished school (for now), and I've been busy training. I am looking foward to WMAA camp next month. Are U going? If so, I hope to see you. If not, drop me a line, even if it's through this forum. I've been getting my class together again, and I have plans to do some innovative stuff. This means....ROAD TRIP TO OHIO! WHEEEEEEEEEEW!

Uh, yeah. Anyway's, when I get the ball rollin' over here again, we should get together and train, or seminar, or somethin'.

Nate sends his regards. He unfortunatily can't make it to Buffalo next month, but he plans to begin training again with due dilligance.

We'll talk soon.:wavey:

[Mao]

It's great to see you here Paul. It'll be a better place with you in it. I look forward to reading you more and appreciate your honesty.
mao