Forms in Kenpo.

[arnisador]

I know that Mr. Parker set out to make a modern and scientific art. We hear so much nowadays about kata/forms not being practical; what was Mr. Parker's rationale for having forms in his art?

[Nate_Hoopes]

Forms not rational?? I dont know what Mr parkers rationality was behind having forms but i know why i like them. Maybe its just me, but i see my skill level grow MOST while doing/working on my forms, A form/kata should be perfect, or close to perfect depending on skill level, nothing i do is perfect, but the forms help, for me especially with foot work, the way kenpo forms all start and end in the same spot, one or 2 minor missteps throws your whole direction and timing off, 3 inches too far here there and suddenly youre ending your kata facing 3'oclock instad of 12'o'clock like you should have. Katas are skill builders.

[GouRonin]

Vehicles to teach motion. That's scientific.

[WilliamTLear]

The begining forms are routines in which a practitioner is intended to practice the basics of the system while in motion.

Basics Include:

Stances
Maneuvers
Blocks
and Strikes
(as well as Specialized Moves)

Billy Lear

[GouRonin]

I wasn't aware you could even read...
:eek:

[WilliamTLear]

You'd better go get your tire-iron and hope that I turn around.

:pistols:

Billy Lear "Dog Slayer"

[Goldendragon7]

Well......... Since you asked....

The first 4 "Forms" (Short & Long 1 - Short and Long 2) are considered the "Dictionaries of Motion" to our system.

The rest of the "Forms" (Short & Long 3,4,5,6) are considered the Encyclopedias to our system.

The "sets" are considered the appendices to the system.

Each play an important role in the knowledge filing of all the main principles and actions.


:asian:

[donald]

To:Golden d7,
Having never witnessed short4, I have a couple of questions.
Is it a pared down version of L4? I mean like S2 compared to L2,
or is it a bit deeper than that? The instructor I know used to teach S4, but dropped it. Also since we are on the subject of forms. I believe it was you who posted a response alluding
to the weapons you're familar with? Do you teach your weapons,
i.e. sai, with a P.K.S. slant? Or are you teaching totally original
forms, i.e. P.K.S./Tracy kenpo Staff Set? Thank you for your time, and consideration...
Salute in Christ,
Donald :asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Short four is half of Long 4 in other words you only do one side of each technique but it is a new method of form architechure.... the techniques alternate first one technique right the next technique left. Few know of this form which has never been instituted into the curriculum. It is an optional set for most.

The weapons sets I teach are the normal sets that are in the curriculum such as the staff set, nunchaku set, club set, form 7 (clubs)and form 8 (knives). I also teach alternate forms with a variety of other weapons with of course, kenpo slant.
:asian:

[donald]

Mr.Golden d7,
First let me say thank you for your response to my post.
Now to the issue at hand!!! At the end of your response.
You said you teach the "other" weapons forms with a kenpo slant.
Does this mean you teach the "traditional" katas, but use
P.K.S., applicational practices? Thanks for your time...
Salute in Christ,

Donald
:D

[Goldendragon7]

In Ed Parker's American Kenpo we use the terminology "Forms..... and Sets" to describe what the Japanese systems call "Kata".

I feel it would be disrespectful to take an Okinawan form an "Kenpoize it" (change the stances etc.) because it was developed for a reason. We could surely do that but further modification would still be needed so I don't do it at all.

As a direct student of Ed Parker's for many years he has taught many how to "engineer" or develop our own Forms and Sets (empty handed or with any weapon we choose).

Yes, there are guidelines to follow such as; which direction to follow, methods of execution, paths, dimensions, angles, and themes. One must examine the weapon of choice for the form and determine just what the weapons use will be for this form and go from there.

We also can use our current forms and put a weapon in our hands and translate the movements to be used for the weapon that we possess.

I hope this helps......


:asian:

[arnisador]

Are Form and Set synonomous?

[Goldendragon7]

"Forms" make up the dictionaries (Short & Long 1 & 2) (Definitions) and encyclopedia's (Short & Long 3, 4, 5 ,6 + 7 & 8)(Information Research) of the system...

"Sets" are the appendices.... or where you search for further info on specific material. i.e., Sets focus on basic categories such as:

Stance - thus Stance Set 1 & 2
Blocks - thus Blocking Set 1 & 2
Strikes - thus Striking Set 1 & 2
Finger Techniques - thus Finger Set 1 & 2
Kicks - thus Kicking Set 1 & 2
Coordination - thus Coord. Set 1 & 2


:asian:

[Jim Micozzi]

I have heard of this form but have never been able to get it written out. If anyone has it written out, I would be forever grateful if you would email a copy to me...

Thanks.

[Klondike93]

There is a short form 4? When was this created? Tell me more.

:shrug:

Chuck

[AvPKenpo]

From what I understand most schools have dropped short 4 because of its confusing relationship with long 4. We teach both of them on the same list, 1st Black.

How many of your schools still teach both?

Michael

[Goldendragon7]

Mr. Parker revealed this around 1985 or '86. It was explained to a few that wished to play with the idea and (at that time a new look at the 4).

The shortend version makes for a nice brown belt form for competition, and structural redesign study without "changing" the form greatly. It is actually fun to do.

:asian: :asian:

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

"Forms" make up the dictionaries (Short & Long 1 & 2) (Definitions) and encyclopedia's (Short & Long 3, 4, 5 ,6 + 7 & 8)(Information Research) of the system...

"Sets" are the appendices.... or where you search for further info on specific material. i.e., Sets focus on basic categories such as:

Stance - thus Stance Set 1 & 2
Blocks - thus Blocking Set 1 & 2
Strikes - thus Striking Set 1 & 2
Finger Techniques - thus Finger Set 1 & 2
Kicks - thus Kicking Set 1 & 2
Coordination - thus Coord. Set 1 & 2


:asian:

I have seen where people call Short 1 the blocking set, but by your definition this is not so. What then would be the difference between them?
--Dave:asian: :confused: :asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Although short form #1 uses blocks, and could be "called" a blocking set due to the 4 blocks used by both arms within the Form while traveling from 12 to 9 to 3 to 6 o'clock., it is a totally differnt "Pattern".

The Blocking set #1 for example is preformed from a horse stance and executes 6 different blocks all with one arm then the other, in its standard use.

:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

Starting with teh right side first

Upward Block
Inward Block
Outward Block
Downward Block
Cover
Push Block
Cover

the same is repeated on the left side and then done with both arms simultaneoulsy.

It is a great set and gets even better when variable expansion is employed with it.

[D.Cobb]

Thanks guys, now I know it. The school where I trained, used to call it "Star Block Set".

--Dave
:asian:

[Cthulhu]

Speaking of kenpo forms, does anyone know of a Web site that has video clips of American Kenpo forms? I've only ever seen one or two kenpo forms, and would be interested in seeing more.

Thanks,

Cthulhu

[Robbo]

Dennis Nackford's website has some forms in Real Player format. You have to register to get into the video section but he's got most of the forms there. Lawrence Carrol does a good job on the forms he demonstrates.

http://www.nackordkarate.com/

Something else that looked interesting, didn't have time to check it out but I included it here anyway.

http://martialarts.about.com/cs/instructio11/

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Robbo

Dennis Nackford's website has some forms in Real Player format. You have to register to get into the video section but he's got most of the forms there. Lawrence Carrol does a good job on the forms he demonstrates.

http://www.nackordkarate.com/

Something else that looked interesting, didn't have time to check it out but I included it here anyway.

http://martialarts.about.com/cs/instructio11/

Thanks for the links! I just may have to register to the Nackford site.

Cthulhu

[Cthulhu]

...and of course, when I try to register to the Nackford site, I get an error message.

Sigh.

I fired an e-mail off to the site Webmaster, so we'll see if they can fix the problem.

Cthulhu

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

Thanks guys, now I know it. The school where I trained, used to call it "Star Block Set".

--Dave
:asian:

That's what it was called when I first learned it, Star Block.

:asian:

Chuck

[Kirk]

That's what's it's currently called where I train. Required for
yellow belt.

[Goldendragon7]

Here is a good example of the type of evolution that American Kenpo has experienced throughout the entire system over the last 50 some odd years, now lets examine this particular exercise from origin to current day......

Originally, as many know (including myself), there was this unique drill which used a specific series of blocks executed from a training horse called the Star Block, sometimes referred to as the Star Blocking Set, and possibly other similar nomenclature.

The "Star Block" was a very useful and popular fun "set" or drill that was taught to better illustrate several different blocking concepts. It was executed from a stationary position (training horse stance) in the beginning then footwork was added later to explore the variables.

The basic blocking sequence was......
Upward Block
Inward Block
Extended Outward Block (note different from short form 1)
Downward Block
Back Elbow or "Hidden" or "re-cock" Block
Push Down Block
This was done all with one hand (first the right then the opposite hand (left) was used to do the same sequence note: the blocks move in a downward direction [descending]).

Other variations included:
* to do "both" hands at the same time together (descending).
* to do "both" hands at the same time together in reverse order
(ascending).
* to do "both" hands at the same time together (right hand
descending while the left hand is ascending), (and of course the
opposite).

This developed coordination and focused on the basic blocks of our system. It was used for years until Mr. Parker organized or reorganized (which was part of the "process of evolution") which was common place with all areas of Kenpo. At which time (late '70's & early '80's) he put a standardized all the salutations and formalized a short salutation for all of the "sets" (Stance, Blocking, Striking, Finger, Kicking, Coordination & a few weapon sets).

Thus the name now became Blocking Set # 1 and was now officially recorded written down and formalized.

Now the big question....... why today, do some still call it the "Star Block", know nothing of the salutation for the set or the specific order and or the difference of name?

Answer...... Those that learned the "Star Block" at some time early on and that now had either left Mr. Parker or saw him quite infrequently did NOT get the updates unless they specifically asked "what have you updated recently (since I last saw you or what new are you working on).

Often times, when individuals received lessons from Ed Parker he would ask you........ "what can I help you with"? More often than not....... the quest was always for the highest and latest forms and techniques or clarification of specific techniques. Many did not venture to ask about the Fundamental Structure of the System Basics because I think many figured they knew all the basics well. The results are obvious.

Ed Parker loved diggers since he had to dig and scratch for everything. He loved it when you "discovered" something. He would laugh and say...... "Heyyyyyy ... You took your smart pills today didn't 'cha"! Then he would elaborate on "YOUR NEW" (snicker) discovery. You would then get a lengthy examination and reference of what you found, while he let you know that he had already found that and he was elated that you found it as well. "Kenpo is now in your bones, you are startin' to see what I see"! Ahhhhhh good!

This same phenomenon is what transpired with all other areas of advancement in his art ~ (Forms, sets, techniques revisions and in some cases new numerical order {32 to 24 and 24 to 16} are just a few examples) whoever was around him at the time he was working on certain material were the ones who were in the front row to receive the newest material this also included all the seminars that he did the last 10 years of his life. I say newest but actually much was not really new but better defined and explained in some cases..... but updated none the less.

Well I've went on long enough but I hope you get a better picture, The "Star Block Drill" actually has several hundred permutations (Blocking Set # 1 has 1 basic way) that one can use as drills each working on something specific, but I won't go into all the variations of the Star Block Drill.

:asian:

[Klondike93]

Is it the same salutation that you do for the forms, and then the blocks are the same as done in Star block?

:shrug:

:asian:

Chuck

[Goldendragon7]

Well, No it is not the same salutation that is done in the forms, slioghtly different (much shorter & simpler) the blocking pattern is Up, in, ext. out, down, re~cock, Push.

:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Well, No it is not the same salutation that is done in the forms, slioghtly different (much shorter & simpler) the blocking pattern is Up, in, ext. out, down, re~cock, Push.

:asian:

The short salutation is, from attention stance:

1. Step out with left foot into meditating horse stance
2. Shift arms to training horse stance and begin form

In other schools it goes

Attention stance
Meditating horse stance up to attention stance again into a bow
Meditating horse stance into training horse stance
Begin

It all depends on where you train and how far they have drifted from Senior Grand Master Parker's teachings

[Goldendragon7]

The "Sets" Salutation (as last written prior to Mr. Parkers passing) is as follows.......

Attention Stance, then bow head (nod - down then back up sharply), this is to give respect to the workout area we are about to utilize, then step out with your left foot in a meditation stance left over right hand position (with head down in meditation) hold this for as long as needed to gather self or for practice purposes about 3 seconds. Raise head back up sharply (to return to the hear and now). From this point start the form.....

Hope this helps....
:asian:

[Klondike93]

:eek:

I knew that, just testing you (well sort of, I did that motion just never realized it was a salutation).


:shrug:

[Goldendragon7]

Hee hee you can't fool the teacher..... he is always ready to be tested in word or deed. lol
:asian:

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Well I've went on long enough........

No no, don't stop, I need to know more.......... Lots more!
:D
--Dave
:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Well, you need a personal seminar if you want more now....... lol. Don't get greedy.

I'd love to visit down under again. Late this year or early next year I will be expanding to Samoa.

Maybe I can arrange an Aussie tour.

;)

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Well, you need a personal seminar if you want more now....... lol. Don't get greedy.

I'd love to visit down under again. Late this year or early next year I will be expanding to Samoa.

Maybe I can arrange an Aussie tour.

;)

Now, you're being a tease....:D
But if you do, make sure it's in Melbourne. Then I can go!!

--Dave


:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by D.Cobb



Now, you're being a tease....:D
But if you do, make sure it's in Melbourne. Then I can go!!

--Dave


:asian:

I think he was hinting at you having your school bring him in for a seminar. Goldendragon can be too subtle sometimes.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad



I think he was hinting at you having your school bring him in for a seminar. Goldendragon can be too subtle sometimes.

Or maybe I can just be too thick. DUH!!
My current school doesn't do American Kenpo, but I will have a talk to my previous instructor about it and even suggest it to my current Senseii.

Who knows, I might get lucky.
--Dave:o

[Klondike93]

GD, take me too :D, please :D (now on knees)
I won't take up too much room in your suitcase.
Of course you'll have to stop in Denver and pick me up. :D

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

I'm originally from Arvada. Who do you study with there?

:)

[Klondike93]

Soooo, your from these parts, eh. :D

Well, I live in Thornton (just east of Arvada), teach at a school a friend of mine owns (Mix of TKD, Kenpo, Grappling, Kickboxing).
The school is located just north of Arvada at 88th and Wadsworth if you remember the city at all.
The kenpo school I'm going to is located in Longmont 30 miles to the north of me. My instructor there is Brad Scornavacco a long time student of Lee Wedlake. There are no Ed Parker kenpo schools anywhere in Denver, so my goal is to someday open one in my area.

:D Now about tagging along to Aussie........:D

:asian:

Chuck

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Klondike93
so my goal is to someday open one in my area


Mine too. It'll be eons from now, but it's still my goal

[Goldendragon7]

I'm looking for a couple of expansion studios in your areas with the IKKO.!! Keep me in mind.

:asian:

[Klondike93]

I will do that GD!! :cool:

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

do it soon.:)

[Kirk]

I wish I could! Got lots to learn and quite a bit of time training
before I can.

[Goldendragon7]

yes you do. lol But keep in mind we will always be students of the Art.

:asian:

[Kirk]

yes you do. lol But keep in mind we will always be students of the Art.

Noted ... but I haven't even begun on the "teaching" trek yet.
I'm a bit anxious for that point to occur.

[Goldendragon7]

If you have communicated with your instructor as to your intentions to help I'm sure he will start you as soon as he feels you are ready to go. :)

I usually start my juniors off with an invitation to Instructors class and then have them assist with classes in some fashion. I have a complete method to teaching junior instructors.
:) :asian:

[Zeke]

Originally posted by Klondike93

Soooo, your from these parts, eh. :D

Well, I live in Thornton (just east of Arvada), teach at a school a friend of mine owns (Mix of TKD, Kenpo, Grappling, Kickboxing).
The school is located just north of Arvada at 88th and Wadsworth if you remember the city at all.
The kenpo school I'm going to is located in Longmont 30 miles to the north of me. My instructor there is Brad Scornavacco a long time student of Lee Wedlake. There are no Ed Parker kenpo schools anywhere in Denver, so my goal is to someday open one in my area.

:D Now about tagging along to Aussie........:D

:asian:

Chuck

Hi Klondike93
Could you please give my regards to Brad Scornavacco . I haven't seen him in a couple of years . In fact not since he was in Denmark almost 3 years ago.
Take care
Zeke

:asian: :cool:

[Klondike93]

I will let him know you said Hi. :)

:asian:

[Zeke]

Thanks
:) :cool: :asian:

[D.Cobb]

I have sent you an e-mail via the address from your website, re the conversation I had with my instructor, about you coming downunder. Hope things work out.
--Dave

[Klondike93]

Don't forget to stop off and pick me up in your old home state :D

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

;)