Empty Hands vs Weapons

[KenpoTess]

Would you as female prefer weapons over empty hands in a conflict?

Men if you answer this.. don't take the poll please.

Ok let me rephrase this :)

If you're out by yourself and approached- without knowledge of the Bad guy carrying any weapons or brandishing anything but you feel threatened.
Would you feel better knowing you had access immediately to a weapon of sorts.

Or do you feel comfortable within your Martial Arts training to defend yourself if it comes to that.

[Ender]

I think it's always better to have a weapon...and like the saying goes "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight".

[Cruentus]

I don't want to take the poll, but how can I view it if I don't take it?

[Michelle]

Tess,

Is the BG empty handed? Or armed with something?

Thx,
Michelle

[michaeledward]

I don't want to take the poll, but how can I view it if I don't take it?

Ahem .. the 'View Results' link.

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by michaeledward
Ahem .. the 'View Results' link.

Ahhh...thanks!

[pesilat]

Originally posted by KenpoTess
Would you as female prefer weapons over empty hands in a conflict?

Men if you answer this.. don't take the poll please.

For me, I always prefer to use something that doesn't bleed or feel pain (i.e.: a weapon of some sort) instead of my own appendages that do bleed and feel pain.

Sometimes, I'll use another person as a weapon, but in those cases, I don't care one way or another about the bleeding/pain they experience. I'm just looking to minimize my own bleeding/pain.

Mike

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by Michelle
Tess,

Is the BG empty handed? Or armed with something?

Thx,
Michelle

Hi Michelle :) welcome to the boards.

I edited the beginning post so it makes more sense I hope now ~!


Tess

[pesilat]

Originally posted by KenpoTess

Or do you feel comfortable within your Martial Arts training to defend yourself if it comes to that.

Ahh ... but weapons are within my martial arts training :)

Mike

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by pesilat
Ahh ... but weapons are within my martial arts training :)

Mike
There ya go then.. you're all set ;)

as long as you carry your weapons with you all the time :)

Our Penjak BB has his Karambits with him and most likely sleeps near them *G*

And I have my weapons with me 24/7
"I come to you with Karate, empty hands..... "

It is all good~!!

[KenpoTess]

I personally have a 9mm in my headboard and a loaded shotgun behind my bedroom door.. do I ever feel threatened in my own house? No, but I do live in the city , in a mixed socioeconomic neighborhood where all sorts of things go on .. and I am alone every night but weekends.. would I rely on my training if an intruder volated my home? Not likely.. I would reach for a firearm.. and yes I have been trained in both ..
I don't suggest to anyone having a firearm and not the knowledge to use it.

But if I were walking the dog and was attacked, I would most likely not be carrying anything as I don't carry a purse or keys.. so I would rely on what I have been taught.


just my ramblings :)
Tess

[Seig]

Originally posted by PAUL
I don't want to take the poll, but how can I view it if I don't take it?
Click Here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/poll.php?s=&action=showresults&pollid=176)

[pesilat]

Originally posted by KenpoTess
There ya go then.. you're all set ;)

as long as you carry your weapons with you all the time :)

Our Penjak BB has his Karambits with him and most likely sleeps near them *G*

And I have my weapons with me 24/7
"I come to you with Karate, empty hands..... "

It is all good~!!

Ahh ... but the whole world is a weapon. I don't need to carry anything with me. The world around me provides me - I "live off the land." :)

I can't think of a single situation that I've ever been in where there weren't inanimate objects around that could be used as weapons. In a totally empty room, the walls and floor can be used as weapons - but that's straying from the discussion a little.

A book, a water bottle, a plate, glass, keyboard, mouse, etc. can all be used as weapons and they're all preferable to my all-too-damagable body.

Mike

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by pesilat
Ahh ... but the whole world is a weapon. I don't need to carry anything with me. The world around me provides me - I "live off the land." :)

I can't think of a single situation that I've ever been in where there weren't inanimate objects around that could be used as weapons. In a totally empty room, the walls and floor can be used as weapons - but that's straying from the discussion a little.

A book, a water bottle, a plate, glass, keyboard, mouse, etc. can all be used as weapons and they're all preferable to my all-too-damagable body.

Mike

yep you're right.. and I was only being specific re: weapons and your Art :)

Under the 3 Rooms Thread we offered up some weapon responses.. I'm sitting here looking at a bottle of Vicks vapor rub on my desk.. gee a bit of that in someones eyes or other mucosa would deter them.. my CD could slice some soft flesh.. You name it.. anything can be used to help defend .. :)

[MountainSage]

Wouldn't the use of a weapon in a given situation, i.e. a man on female attack, have the effect of increasing the, for lack of a better term, intensity of the conflict. If an attacker see a weapon that might cause an increase in the response than it would have been without the weapon. One exception would be if the attack was drunk or on drugs.

Mountain Sage

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by MountainSage
Wouldn't the use of a weapon in a given situation, i.e. a man on female attack, have the effect of increasing the, for lack of a better term, intensity of the conflict. If an attacker see a weapon that might cause an increase in the response than it would have been without the weapon. One exception would be if the attack was drunk or on drugs.

Mountain Sage

My preference would be keep your weapon out of sight until absolutely necessary. Don't be walking down the street brandishing it otherwise yes.. you may be targeted for that very reason. Keep keys in your hand between your fingers like brass knuckles. Or any other weapon in your pocket with your hand on it ready to use. not your purse unless you use your purse as a weapon :) Too difficult to get out of quickly.



In an attack .. Jane is walking down the street, she's holding her keys points down between her fingers.. some Bad dude approaches from any angle, now Jane can use those keys in various ways.. raking, stabbing, thrusting them into eyes, *my first target of choice* slicing them across the face , sinking them into the throat, any soft fleshy target, Wound the opponent, distract and Then run like the wind away, Yelling 'FIre' to attract attention.

Now if the woman has a gun and is trained in it's use.. well that's another scenario. Can it be wielded away from her. .of course it can . Can it be used against her.. again yes, Firearms are for distance, Not my weapon of choice in any close confrontation. Nor are Knives, First thought on Knife training, if you're going to use one. You Will get Cut... Accept that .

Carrying a deadly weapon may give a false sense of security and confidence. It may also be used to kill you, Best bet, If you're going to carry.. Know how to use it, Train in disarming people of weapons because more than likely it will be the Bad Guy using one against the victim. Not vice versa.

just my opinion
:asian:

Tess

[Michelle]

I chose "something else" on the poll because as someone else stated I would use whatever is on hand. If I am out in public and approached as the scenario states and feel threatened, then it has already become a situation way too close for a firearm to be of any use. (What's that rule of thumb? 21 feet I think or less and you are sol as far as drawing, aiming, firing). Also, if BG got that close then there I am living in condition white!! :p And lastly, where I live, carrying a firearm is completely, feloneously illegal. :)

Purse, keys, bottle of water...car antennae... there is almost always something on me or close at hand. And an EDC on my purse. I keep my sticks in the car so if it's situation where I'm in my car, there's that option. I would rather not be totally empty handed, not only for offensive but defensive (blocking) reasons too... especially if they have a knife. But maybe that's because of the conditioning of my base art (which is weapons based).

At home I've got a Strider fixed karambit mounted to the head board of my iron bed, well camoflaged, and basically an edged weapon someplace in every room of the house. 2 really big dogs too. But anything works. I know of someone who beat the living s*&$ out of a knife weilding intruder with a 10 pound bag of dog food. How cool is that?!

I'm not crazy or a zealot... I live in an area with an average of one homocide per month. Last week there was one only 1 block away from my house. And I live alone.

Carrying a knife makes me a little uncomfortable for many reasons (not just moral, but tactical as well), but right now not carrying one makes me even less comfortable.

I wonder how much of what we are comfortable with is based on what our primary training is??? We rely on what we know best perhaps. I would like to get to a point where I am more comfortable or at least JUST as comfortable empty handed and that is why I have just recently started training in an art that has very strong tendancies (and amazing techniques) in that direction.

Great question/poll Tess. Makes one really stop and think.

Michelle

[Ceicei]

I own a 9mm Glock and have a concealed weapons carry permit. I keep my gun in a hidden holster on my body rather than in a purse. I also train with Kenpo karate. When to use either (or both) would depend upon the situation and how things are happening.

- Ceicei

[pesilat]

Oh ... I haven't noticed this point raised yet. But, generally, when a woman gets attacked, it's by someone who is bigger and stronger and, generally, with more fighting experience (women who can fight tend not to present themselves as easy targets and, therefore, get attacked less frequently, though it still sometimes happens). So, given a larger, stronger, more experienced opponent, a weapon of some sort can make a great equalizer. A weapon combined with surprise factor ("Surprise! She's not the easy mark you thought she was!") combined with committed intent will go a long way toward insuring the woman's survival of the encounter.

Mike

[Cruentus]

Considering that you are more likely to be attacked with a weapon, or have a weapon available to you of some kind (using your environment to improvise a weapon), I would say that not incorporating weapons training and awareness to your self defense is not real self defense at all. That is a false sense of security more then anything else.

Also, carrying a weapon if you are untrained is a false sense of security also.

Carrying a weapon if you are properly trained, however, IS NOT a false sense of security. If you have had adequete training then you will know that your weapon does not make you invincable. You will understand both the strength's and limitations of the tool that you are carrying. By understanding the "reality" of the tool and your abilities, your security and understanding will not be "false."

I maintain that a blade is one of the most adequete weapons to carry for a woman, if she has the TIME and DEDICATION to learn the strengths and limitations of the tool. You do not need "strength" to operate a blade to do severe damage, so you have just equalized yourself with a stronger opponent. Your blade can also do severe damage in ONE OR TWO strikes (slashes, stabs, etc.) to any part of your opponents body. This now equalizes you against multiple attackers. And, a blade is very difficult to take out of your hands. Even if your attacker is a "knife disarming expert" the odds are still in your favor if your are trained witha knife. You are not invincible with this tool, but you are putting the odds in your favor if you carry, and you are trained. The only problem with this tool is that YOU HAVE TO TRAIN AND BE PROFICIENT BEFORE YOU ATTEMPT TO CARRY. If you are not proficient, you could cause more harm to yourself with this tool. But if you are trained, you will do well carrying this weapon, in my opinion.

[Dark_Sunshine]

I carry a keychain with a six-inch long metal rod with grips on it (sometimes called a kubotan). I find it integrates well with my knowledge of karate, adds one hell of a pack to my punch, and it's legal for me to carry here in Canada.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Dark_Sunshine
I carry a keychain with a six-inch long metal rod with grips on it (sometimes called a kubotan). I find it integrates well with my knowledge of karate, adds one hell of a pack to my punch, and it's legal for me to carry here in Canada.

There's an article on pocket sticks cited here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10756).

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by Dark_Sunshine
I carry a keychain with a six-inch long metal rod with grips on it (sometimes called a kubotan). I find it integrates well with my knowledge of karate, adds one hell of a pack to my punch, and it's legal for me to carry here in Canada.

Hi Dark Sunshine :)
Welcome to Martial Talk ~!


I also have a Kubotan and learned some wicked ways to use it ~!! It's a good nonchalant looking weapon to know how to use.

Tess

[LadyDragon]

If I had no other choice, I wouldn't have a problem using my ma's training. But if I had I choice, I guess I would have to go with a firearm. Several martial artists that I know are also in to the martial art of ching pow:2pistols

[hardheadjarhead]

I carry a knife (usually two) at all times. A gun, sometimes.

I teach four criteria for my students for carrying a weapon.

1. THE WEAPON HAS TO BE IN YOUR HAND. If its in the night stand or glove compartment and out of reach, it is of no use.

2. YOU HAVE TO BE TRAINED IN ITS USE. I've met a lot of people who haven't received proper tactical training with a gun or knife, yet carry one or the other.

3. THE WEAPON HAS TO WORK. Folks, if pepper gas were 100% effective, cops wouldn't carry guns. Commercial peppergas has a shelf life of 3-5 years. The propellant can leak out. It may not be all that hot.

4. YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO USE IT. One shouldn't bluff. You don't carry it to "scare him away". Its there to be used. If you take it out, its with the intention to use it ASAP. I'm of the philosophy that the attacker should feel it before he sees it. There might be instances where a gun could be used as a deterrent, but I wouldn't suggest making that a tactical plan.

If you don't follow the criteria, there is a good chance the weapon will be taken away from you and used against you...or you'll get killed by HIS weapon.



Regards,

Steve Scott

[Ceicei]

Four excellent points! Thank you. You pretty much repeated what my weapons trainer said except in more simple terms.

Your handle (userid) seem to imply you are either in the military or a police officer. Are you?

- Ceicei

[hardheadjarhead]

Ceicei,

I was in the Marines years ago. I used to do demos of cinder block breaking with my head when I was younger. I needed something unusual for a handle...so I picked that. By the way, in reflection, that was a stupid demo to do. Don't try that at home.

I'm a martial arts school owner, and occasionally my students and I will roleplay as "bad guys" for a locally run SWAT school...but I have no other police affiliation other than that.

The criteria I mentioned were taken from Stephen Thompson, a rape defense speaker and instructor. He's the author of "No More Fear", which may be out of print. Thompson, incidentally, is an outstanding speaker and has some great insights into women's self defense.

Regards,

Steve Scott

[Cruentus]

Steve,

What's up, Man.

That is some great criteria to use.

Another thing I'd like to add about pepper spray is that a good % of women who are attacked are attacked from behind. If a guy grabs a woman from behind by grabbing around her neck with his left, and grabbing her wrist with his right (the wrist holding the keyring with the pepper spray), the pepper spray is now useless.

[hardheadjarhead]

Hey Paul,

Before pepper spray was popular it was "mace". I knew a woman attacked in a parking lot who was knocked down and mounted from the rear...she had her mace in her hand. She tried to spray over her shoulder...got the guy on the second attempt. Got herself on the first.

She managed to get away, half blind and choking and gagging. It doesn't always turn out that way.


In the scenario you describe, Paul, and in the one above we see a "blitz" rape. These are not as common as many believe. Most attackers work their way in within arms reach using charm, niceness, a ruse. When they make their move, the woman isn't prepared to meet criteria #1. The weapon isn't in their hand.

That said, if I had a good pepper spray (the brand the local cops use), I'd carry it...along with my Glock 27 and/or my two Benchmade Griptilians. I'd probably find a place for one of my Strider MFS's, too. I'd never just carry the pepper spray.



Regards,

Steve Scott

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
In the scenario you describe, Paul, and in the one above we see a "blitz" rape. These are not as common as many believe.

What other approaches do attackers utilize against women?

I think that most people are aware of the three types: date rapes (acquaintances), incest (family/relatives), and attack/abduction (by a stranger). We try to safeguard ourselves especially against the first and third.

Are there other typical approaches we should at least be aware?

- Ceicei

[hardheadjarhead]

Ceicei,

Steven Thompson, the author of "No More Fear" lectured here at I.U. A leading educator in the field, he pointed out that there are several categories of rapists. I assume these categories are ones he came up with...they are as follows:

The State Rapist: Rapes once, perhaps while drunk, is repulsed by it and never does it again. I'm under the impression this is the most common form.

The Trait Rapist: The serial rapist, divided into these categories by Thompson.

Type One. Seeks to dominate. Often deterred with a slap, punch, or kick. He's not out to fight.

Type Two. Wants to physically hurt the woman in addition to humiliating her.

A subtype of this, you could call it Type 2A...is the sexual sadist who kills.

More later. Gotta go teach the kids. I'll talk about Thompson's views on The Rape Sequence and the rapists criteria next.

Regards,

Steve Scott

[hardheadjarhead]

Hey, folks...sorry...I'm getting off topic here. I needed to post this to a different thread, or something.

But to keep it on topic, I can tie it in by saying that few rapes involve a weapon...if I recall the stats right. I

Yah...here it is:

In 2002, 21% of the incidents of violent crime, a weapon was present.

Offenders had or used a weapon in 46% of all robberies, compared with 7% of all rapes/sexual assaults in 2002.

Homicides are most often committed with guns, especially handguns. In 2000, 52% of homicides were committed with handguns, 14% with other guns, 14% with knives, 5% with blunt objects, and 15% with other weapons.

In each of 12 cities surveyed in 1998, victims said that less than half of the violent crimes involved a weapon.


Reference this:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_c.htm


Regards,

Steve Scott

[Seig]

I have trained with and trained several police officers. Here are some things that I and they have learned over the years.
Knife or blade of some kind
It is a deadly weapon. Make sure you are in a deadly force scenario. Know the laws. Train well with the weapon if you are going to use it.
Firearm
If you are going to carry/use a firearm, get instruction not only in it's use, but it's care. A firearm that does not go off is a bludgeon. Shooting someone comes with heavy consequences(legal and psychological), to the person shot and the person shooting. Also, if youa re going to use/carry this type of weapon, make sure it is legal for you to do so and comply with any laws to this extent (think Bernie Getz)
Spray deterrant
One can per customer. Don't go half way or feel sorry for them, empty the can in their face.
Empty Hands
Always, but always a last resort. Try to have SOMETHING or SOMEONE at hand at all times. A good friend of mine won the Florida state championships in creative forms using a telephone as his weapon. That's right, a telephone. Not a cordless one, but a corded one. Think about how much force can be derived from swinging it and hitting them with either the phone body or the receiver. Use a magazine, or anything else that has been mentioned. Anything can be turned into a weapon in the right hands.

[hardheadjarhead]

Seig,

You brought up some good points. I particularly like your emphasis on "one can per customer" when it comes to pepper spray/mace. It has its limitations, but it has its uses, too.

I agree with your statement that training with a gun is imperative.

Here is where I disagree with you...

Your friend won a forms division with that phone, not an NHB fighting division or a full contact weapons division hosted by the Dog Brothers. I'll bet he/she had some good techniques that might be employed by people in self defense. But nobody was countering those movements.

Again, as I submitted on another thread in response to one of your posts, consider who is going to use the weapon.

Throughout this forum...indeed, throughout the internet newsgroups and forums...I see people advocating that women use this and that technique, employ this or that weapon without considering the physical dynamics of the woman in question.

How big is she? How old is she? Is she healthy? Is she naturally aggressive? Is she strong or weak? Tall or short?

Do you teach a grandmother to use a phone in self defense? Do you teach her a telephone form? Do you have her use a rolled up magazine? How about the woman in a wheelchair? The 120 pound, five foot one half inch mother of three? How about the woman in her seventh month of pregnancy?

My point is this...there is nothing wrong with weapons in self defense, provided the weapon works. When considering the efficacy of a field expedient weapon (such as you describe) a person MUST take into account the size, strength, health, and emotional status of the operater of the weapon.

Any pig who would attack a grandmother certainly isn't going to be deterred by a magazine or a phone in her hands. While it might be possible she could drive him off with some well placed swats, I doubt it is probable. She'll be lucky if she can even get to such a weapon, the way most of these guys work.

Should she answer the door with her telephone at ready? Should she grab a magazine at night when she hears the sound of breaking glass downstairs and she's preparing to dial 911?


Regards,

Steve Scott

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead How big is she? How old is she? Is she healthy? Is she naturally aggressive? Is she strong or weak? Tall or short?

Do you teach a grandmother to use a phone in self defense? Do you teach her a telephone form? Do you have her use a rolled up magazine? How about the woman in a wheelchair? The 120 pound, five foot one half inch mother of three? How about the woman in her seventh month of pregnancy?

Should she answer the door with her telephone at ready? Should she grab a magazine at night when she hears the sound of breaking glass downstairs and she's preparing to dial 911?


Regards,

Steve Scott

You have always presented thought-provoking comments.

Another thought to add to the mix, what if the perp takes your weapon and/or counters your empty hand move? This is not to discourage or deter the idea of picking up a tool to fight with, but rather, to face the reality that this scenario may happen and to consider minimizing or preventing this possibility.

Unfortunately, this does involve training the mind and body to be willing to fight hard as well as to adapt quickly to changing situations with a back-up plan (even plan C and onward).

As you have pointed out, self defense is truly "self" defense; it must be customized in a manner that the defender can handle and do.

The types of people you mention would much rather not dwell on this and hope that life would be more idyllic than hazardous. Who wouldn't?

Gone are the days when we could expect to feel 100% safe at all times wherever we are without needing protection. Its a sad world...

- Ceicei

[Seig]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
Seig,

You brought up some good points. I particularly like your emphasis on "one can per customer" when it comes to pepper spray/mace. It has its limitations, but it has its uses, too.

I agree with your statement that training with a gun is imperative.

Here is where I disagree with you...

Your friend won a forms division with that phone, not an NHB fighting division or a full contact weapons division hosted by the Dog Brothers. I'll bet he/she had some good techniques that might be employed by people in self defense. But nobody was countering those movements.
So based on that logic, no one should practice forms as they are irrelevant to self defense? Regardless, I am not going to get into that argument here, it wasn't so much of how practical the form was but more of a vehicle that got me thinking. We train people to use lanyards in self defense. How is a phone cord different? Can a phone cord be used to tie up an knife weilding attakers arm? Can a receiver be a bludgeon? WHAT IF she had the foresight to call 911 and the 911 operator not only heard someone being hit with the phone but an aggressor while the victim is screaming help? Might the operator send the police?


Again, as I submitted on another thread in response to one of your posts, consider who is going to use the weapon.

Throughout this forum...indeed, throughout the internet newsgroups and forums...I see people advocating that women use this and that technique, employ this or that weapon without considering the physical dynamics of the woman in question.
Again, not accurate. I have taught far more woman than I have men. When I am dealing with them, I deal with their strengths and weaknesses, I was throwing out some general ideas. When I teach a woman, I tailor my teaching to that individual. Being gender biased in the martial arts is completely unfair to your students.


How big is she? How old is she? Is she healthy? Is she naturally aggressive? Is she strong or weak? Tall or short?
Same dynamics apply to men. Again, this is gender biased and chauvinistic. My partner at work is a 59 year old man that is 5'6", 93 pounds and a cancer survivor. At a training session we had last week, he opened a lot of eyes with his ability. Do not judge people by their physical stature. It can get you severly hurt.


Do you teach a grandmother to use a phone in self defense?Does she spend a lot of time on it? Then yes. If she does not, I may teach her to use whatever she uses on a regular basis such as knitting needles. What is important to remember is that a large percentage of attackers rely on surprise and intimidation, they do not expect their victims to fight back.

Do you teach her a telephone form?
That is not my form, I don't teach that to anyone.

Do you have her use a rolled up magazine?
If that is what she has at hand, yes. It's all about options.

How about the woman in a wheelchair?
It has been my experience, that a large percentage of people in wheelchairs have extreme upper body strength (unless of course they are para or quad) and again, I play to their strengths. That type of student is a challenge.

The 120 pound, five foot one half inch mother of three? She is probably an extremely fierce woman, especially if she is defending her children.

How about the woman in her seventh month of pregnancy?
See above. A woman in a late pregnancy who is dealing with the hormonal excesses can not only be incredibly stong, but also incredibly viscious. Some are prone to extreme violence.


My point is this...there is nothing wrong with weapons in self defense, provided the weapon works.
It all comes back to training and training regularly and consistnatly.
When considering the efficacy of a field expedient weapon (such as you describe) a person MUST take into account the size, strength, health, and emotional status of the operater of the weapon. Thus my statements of tailoring weapons and training to individuals not the other way around and taking people on a case by case basis. Again, I was throwing out general ideas to provoke the thought process. Most women on this board train and train regularly, having them implement any of the weapons I have advocated would not be that big of a stretch.


Any pig who would attack a grandmother certainly isn't going to be deterred by a magazine or a phone in her hands.
It isn't about deterring them, it's about hurting them. I do not teach to deter attackers, I teach to hurt them as severly as possible to effect escape. I teach that to men as well as women. As I have told all of my students male/female, young/old, fit/out of shape, "A good run is better than a bad stand any day." I have also told them that unless the situation becomes life or death or a rape scenario, give them what they want. When you are left with no other option, fight as if your life depends on it, as it probably does.

While it might be possible she could drive him off with some well placed swats, I doubt it is probable.
Who said anything about swats? We also train in the Phillipino stick arts, I have taken the stick strikes, most notably the punyo (butt end of the stick)and adapted it to a ladies magaizine, which is not only fairly thick, but is also on a heavy grade paper. If she has been taught to strike properly, she can do serious damage to a face or skull with it.
[QUOTE] She'll be lucky if she can even get to such a weapon, the way most of these guys work. It's all about fighting with what is on hand. She may have them around the house, she may be walking to wherever with it already in hand, especially if she has been trained and is exercising what in Kenpo we call the 8 Preparatory Considerations. The first two of which are Acceptance and Environmental Awareness.


Should she answer the door with her telephone at ready? Absolutely. More importantly, she should not answer the door until she is absolutely sure of who is on the other side. It's all about the training.

Should she grab a magazine at night when she hears the sound of breaking glass downstairs and she's preparing to dial 911? No, she should dial 911 and stay put. What if any weapons does she normally keep close to hand? If she doesn't keep any, what can she employ as a weapon? Where you and I agree is that training in an ongoing manner is important. Where we disagree is that I think you are being arrogant where women are concerned and I feel you are selling them way short. Of course in this medium, we could actually not be that far apart and not realize due to the fact neither of us is probably getting everything across as intended. A text medium is always difficult when dealing with the martial arts with voice inflection and body language and such removed.


Regards,

Steve Scott

[hardheadjarhead]

So based on that logic, no one should practice forms as they are irrelevant to self defense?

Your argument's apparent premise was that because your friend won that creative forms division, it was a valid weapon. Or was it the other way around? The phone was a valid weapon, ergo he won the division....? Look at how you worded it.

I'm not attacking forms at all, nor their potential application in self defense...that's a different topic, different thread, and an argument that is perennial. Personally, I think its kind of zippy that he used the phone in the form, and I would have enjoyed seeing it.

My point was that a forms competition isn't a valid testing ground for the efficacy of a phone as a weapon. His winning the tournament isn't pertinent to the issue.


Can a phone cord be used to tie up an knife weilding attakers arm?

Sure...I suppose it could be...but I sure wouldn't focus on that for a woman's self defense program. Do this, please...start a thread talking about the phone as a weapon in women's self defense. Post jpegs, show us the technique, give us scenarios. Tell us how to train it. I'm not being inflammatory here. I'd find it interesting. I mean that sincerely, and without condescension.


WHAT IF she had the foresight to call 911 and the 911 operator not only heard someone being hit with the phone but an aggressor while the victim is screaming help? Might the operator send the police?

I think we all agree that a phone, and 911, is a great way to expedite the arrival of the cops. 911 should be put on speed dial.

In response to my comments concerning the consideration of a woman's physical dynamics...stature, health, etc., you wrote:


Same dynamics apply to men. Again, this is gender biased and chauvinistic. My partner at work is a 59 year old man that is 5'6", 93 pounds and a cancer survivor. At a training session we had last week, he opened a lot of eyes with his ability. Do not judge people by their physical stature. It can get you severly hurt.

I apply the same standards to men. Where did I say I didn't? We're talking about self defense for women, not men. I fail to see how recognizing such realities as age, health, infirmity, or size makes me chauvinistic. If anything, these are leveling characteristics. We all get old, we all get sick, we all get arthritis (well, I have it, and misery loves company, anybody care to join me), and some of us...like me...are just plain shrimpy.


She is probably an extremely fierce woman, especially if she is defending her children.

I agree the maternal instinct is strong, and ought to be tapped into. That wasn't my point.


See above. A woman in a late pregnancy who is dealing with the hormonal excesses can not only be incredibly stong, but also incredibly viscious. Some are prone to extreme violence.

Anybody want to comment on that? I'm leaving it alone!


Thus my statements of tailoring weapons and training to individuals not the other way around and taking people on a case by case basis.

Then we are in agreement. I disagree on the weapons and methods, perhaps...but it sounds like you're agreeing with me on this point.


It isn't about deterring them, it's about hurting them. I do not teach to deter attackers, I teach to hurt them as severly as possible to effect escape. I

Which is what I've been saying all along...hurt them severely, and quickly. I just don't believe women can do that effectively with the weapons you list, or with some of the techniques listed by others. Elsewhere I listed four criteria for weapons use...one of them was that the weapon has to work. I think the weapons you list MIGHT work for a woman, but likely won't.


Where you and I agree is that training in an ongoing manner is important. Where we disagree is that I think you are being arrogant where women are concerned and I feel you are selling them way short. Of course in this medium, we could actually not be that far apart and not realize due to the fact neither of us is probably getting everything across as intended. A text medium is always difficult when dealing with the martial arts with voice inflection and body language and such removed.

Arrogant? In responding to you, maybe. I apologized to you elsewhere when Tess correctly called me on the tone of one of my posts. I offer that apology again. I dealt with you badly, and I regret it. Written words are normally my best medium for expression. They failed me here.

As for being arrogant where women are concerned and selling them short...what possible defense could I mount to that, Seig?

I pointed out that women are typically smaller and weaker than the man they'll face. That isn't sexist...that's a simple truth. What I advocate is simple techniques that I feel will drop that attacker instantly. I'd teach the same techniques to a Marine deploying to Iraq. I've stated that publicly many times, and ALL the students in my school practice the same basic techniques for self defense...regardless of gender.

So I confess that I may have come off as arrogant...but I don't think the women in my school, or the women I've taught self defense to for the last decade, would ever say that I've sold them short. I can't speak for them, though.

Regards,

Steve Scott

[Seig]

Steve,
Ok, it sounds as if we are basically on the same page. We just rubbed each other the wrong way. Back to the phone issue. Watching Berto Friedman do the form simply gave me ideas that I expounded upon. I was not stating that his phone form would necessarily be a good SD application, but it made me think. The magazine, I guess I'd have to show you. Think of it this way, it can be used much like an escrima stick. Not necessarily a great "swatting" weapon, but good for soft targets (nose, eyes) and when used as a punyo can to serious damage to a skull. I realize this forum is based on SD for women, but physical dynamics are physical dynamics, regardless of gender. I will respond to your above post in a bit. I am at work and have to do a few things first. :)

[Seig]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
Your argument's apparent premise was that because your friend won that creative forms division, it was a valid weapon. Or was it the other way around? The phone was a valid weapon, ergo he won the division....? Look at how you worded it.
Text media misunderstanding. I meant to say that watching him do it made me think. It gave me ideas to work from. Avenues to explore.


I'm not attacking forms at all, nor their potential application in self defense...that's a different topic, different thread, and an argument that is perennial. Personally, I think its kind of zippy that he used the phone in the form, and I would have enjoyed seeing it.
It was definately a spectacle to behold. Unfortunately, he never did it again. He felt he could never top it or truly replicate it.


My point was that a forms competition isn't a valid testing ground for the efficacy of a phone as a weapon. His winning the tournament isn't pertinent to the issue.
Agreed. See above...ideas.....


Sure...I suppose it could be...but I sure wouldn't focus on that for a woman's self defense program.
As a focus, no. As an improvised weapon, yes.

Do this, please...start a thread talking about the phone as a weapon in women's self defense. Post jpegs, show us the technique, give us scenarios. Tell us how to train it. I'm not being inflammatory here. I'd find it interesting. I mean that sincerely, and without condescension.
It bears looking into. I'll see what I can come up with.

I think we all agree that a phone, and 911, is a great way to expedite the arrival of the cops. 911 should be put on speed dial.
Absolutely

In response to my comments concerning the consideration of a woman's physical dynamics...stature, health, etc., you wrote:


I apply the same standards to men. Where did I say I didn't? We're talking about self defense for women, not men. I fail to see how recognizing such realities as age, health, infirmity, or size makes me chauvinistic. If anything, these are leveling characteristics. We all get old, we all get sick, we all get arthritis (well, I have it, and misery loves company, anybody care to join me), and some of us...like me...are just plain shrimpy.
Maybe you didn't say you did. I construed that you did. Recognizing those characteristics is paramount to any SD program. Again, the technique has to be based on the individuale, not the individual on the techinque.

I agree the maternal instinct is strong, and ought to be tapped into. That wasn't my point.
I know it wasn't the point, nevertheless, it is extremely valid. Any woman that has borne three children is formidable.

Anybody want to comment on that? I'm leaving it alone!
Unfortunately, I am speaking here from personal experience.

Then we are in agreement. I disagree on the weapons and methods, perhaps...but it sounds like you're agreeing with me on this point.
Yep

Which is what I've been saying all along...hurt them severely, and quickly. I just don't believe women can do that effectively with the weapons you list,
Try it, you may be surprised. Sometime in the fiture we could do some phone time and I can maybe get the idea across more clearly.

or with some of the techniques listed by others. Agreed

Elsewhere I listed four criteria for weapons use...one of them was that the weapon has to work. I think the weapons you list MIGHT work for a woman, but likely won't. See two answers back. Experiment, you might be surprised.


Arrogant? In responding to you, maybe. I apologized to you elsewhere when Tess correctly called me on the tone of one of my posts. I offer that apology again. I dealt with you badly, and I regret it. Written words are normally my best medium for expression. They failed me here.
Accepted.


As for being arrogant where women are concerned and selling them short...what possible defense could I mount to that, Seig?
None, and I suspect at one time or another we have all been guilty of it.


I pointed out that women are typically smaller and weaker than the man they'll face. That isn't sexist...that's a simple truth.
There is validity to your statement, but it is not an absolute. It comes back to training, training, and more training.


What I advocate is simple techniques that I feel will drop that attacker instantly. I'd teach the same techniques to a Marine deploying to Iraq. I've stated that publicly many times, and ALL the students in my school practice the same basic techniques for self defense...regardless of gender.
While I don't believe the one punch one knock down approach, I agree with the spirit of what you are saying. Can it happen, yes. Does it normally, no. I agree, simplicity is the key.


So I confess that I may have come off as arrogant...but I don't think the women in my school, or the women I've taught self defense to for the last decade, would ever say that I've sold them short. I can't speak for them, though.

Regards,

Steve Scott
If they are happy and your teaching have brought them value, they can ask no more. Keep it up!

[hardheadjarhead]

Seig...

I'm glad we're on better terms with this.


There is validity to your statement, but it is not an absolute. It comes back to training, training, and more training.

You're correct...it isn't an absolute. This is why I said "typically". The smallest, weakest adult I ever trained was a full grown male who was four feet, ten inches tall and weighed 100 pounds. He was a graduate student in music at I.U.

Here is where I think we got off course with each other...and I got off course with some others, as well. When I was looking at this, I was thinking of a limited time frame, such as a short course (which was on another thread), or a course of instruction where a woman would train for a bit and eventually quit. In the best of schools/programs retention isn't all that hot. Most women and men train for awhile and then stop.

Insofar as field expedient weapons, I am not completely adverse to women learning them...but I'd have to look at the training program. If it were an on-going women's self defense program I could see something like this. If it were part of a regular martial arts program that had other things in the curriculum competing for time in training on the mat...that could be problematic.

At my school we train self defense in the regular martial arts classes. I don't think it is nearly enough...but I'm not willing to compromise the rest of my curriculum. It is, if anything, a brief introduction to the concepts I advocate.

To compensate for those deficiencies I teach a women's self defense course where I try to address those needs more in depth. There is a lecture portion and then a separate applications class...the first goes over the characteristics of the rapist, stats, etc...the second portion the students work the technique. I make the lecture mandatory for all my adult black belt applicants...male and female alike...but the course targets the non-martial artist.

I also require black belt applicants to do a certain number of hours grappling...either BJJ or Combat Submission Wrestling and then do a certain number of hours of FMA. Our FMA program is largely the Inosanto blend (I have three associate instructors under Guro Dan teaching here), but we also have a training group in Sayoc and another in Pekiti Tirsia. I'm also bringing back my Modern Arnis program.

The goal with these requirements isn't to give them proficiency...but to open their eyes. They get on the ground in CSW and suddenly realize how powerful some of these guys are...and heavy. They learn that an armbar can be a very sneaky technique and extremely effective. They get in FMA and realize that a person with a knife or other type of contact can really wreck your whole day.

Hopefully...HOPEFULLY...they'll get a clue and start hitting those areas a little harder so they can fill in any gaps in their training. At the very least they become a little more rounded in the martial arts, and not stylistic bigots who believe that Tae Kwon Do is the "be all and end all".

You're right...training, training, training. That is the key. One of the biggest frustrations we face are people who don't want to train...but still want to protect themselves. I know you've heard this one before..."I want to be able to defend myself, but I don't want to hurt anybody."

Everybody wants to go to heavan, but nobody wants to die.

Regards,

Steve Scott

[RachelK]

I would prefer a weapon to empty hands, it does lend an advantage. A knife or gun is more deadly, however, concealed carry licenses are impossible to get in my location. And I am not that fluent with the knife. My preferred weapon is a short stick, such as a folding umbrella. I'd feel more comfortable defending myself with than with a knife, even against another knife. But I'd certainly take a knife over empty hands against an attack. But with that said, I think my empty-hands work is actually better than the weapons work. Nonetheless, even though I'm not an expert in using weapons, I still think I'd rather have a weapon if attacked than nothing at all.
Just my take on it.
Best,
Rachel

[Carol]

Would you as female prefer weapons over empty hands in a conflict?

Men if you answer this.. don't take the poll please.

Ok let me rephrase this :)

If you're out by yourself and approached- without knowledge of the Bad guy carrying any weapons or brandishing anything but you feel threatened.
Would you feel better knowing you had access immediately to a weapon of sorts.

Or do you feel comfortable within your Martial Arts training to defend yourself if it comes to that.


Personally I don't think a weapon is a talisman that ensures my security. Carrying a weapon introduces a personal risk as well as legal risks (and legal demands).

A long time ago I vowed to myself that I would not pack any kind of weapon unless I had proper training in not only how to use it, but also how to minimize the chance of it being used against me.

That being said, I'm not exactly comfortable with my empty-hand MA training either. Self Defense takes a long time to properly learn and I am not there yet.

While I'm not against using whatever I am carrying as a weapon if I have to, I don't pack at all right now. As my training progresses I will rethink this decision, but for now I don't want to take the chance of packing.

[RachelK]

A long time ago I vowed to myself that I would not pack any kind of weapon unless I had proper training in not only how to use it, but also how to minimize the chance of it being used against me.
That point is often mentioned in the discussion of pros and cons of carrying a weapon. Let's say we're talking about a knife. If you're wielding a knife, even if you are inexperienced, as long as you are willing to use it, would it be that easy to take away from you and use against you? Let's say an agitated 6-year-old is wielding a sharp kitchen knife. Would you consider it easy to take the knife away from even a child? I would not. And so I would consider it even less easy to take a knife away from an agitated adult who fears for her life. I know there are desperate, crazy criminals out there who might be able to wrestle a knife away from a victim and use it against her. But I don't think it's as easy as is often stated to get a knife away from someone defending their life. It's interesting that the reverse is never stated: trained martial artists do not believe there is much chance of getting the knife away from an attacker and using it against him. So why is it often stated that a knife can be taken away from a victim and used against her?
If you ever train with a live blade, the idea of grabbing the knife away from the other person becomes increasingly theoretical. A person highly trained in weapons disarming might be able to do it. And I guess we can't dismiss the possiblity that an attacker could be highly skilled in knife disarming. But even a competent martial artist is not going to disarm a live blade too easily, at least, not without sacrificing personal safety. Try it out, if you have a traininer partner you trust. Get a live blade and have the other person attack you and try to take the blade away while you use it to defend yourself. Most people who value their own hide won't come close enough to get cut. Someone who is intent on getting the blade away might endure a few cuts but most will stop short of getting severed arteries. And someone who truly does not care about their own safety might be able to get the blade away if they don't mind losing a lot of blood. Whether or not they will be in any shape to wield it afterwards is questionable.
I believe that if the person with the knife is willing to use it, even if they are not highly trained, it will not be so easy to get the knife away and use it against them. That's just my opinion. That said, I don't carry a knife anymore myself, although I do carry other kinds of sharp objects. I am looking into getting one for self-protection, though.
Best,
Rachel

[Swordlady]

I carry a small folding knife (a Kershaw Scallion) at all times. I can whip it out fairly quickly, but I'd still rather not use a knife for self-defense purposes - except for last resort. As it was stated several times in this thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37042), both sides are most likely going to get cut if knives get involved. I would probably choose to go empty-handed before pulling out a knife. I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I'm comfortable enough with my skill level to put up some kind of fight if needed.

[Carol]

That point is often mentioned in the discussion of pros and cons of carrying a weapon. Let's say we're talking about a knife. If you're wielding a knife, even if you are inexperienced, as long as you are willing to use it, would it be that easy to take away from you and use against you? Let's say an agitated 6-year-old is wielding a sharp kitchen knife. Would you consider it easy to take the knife away from even a child? I would not. And so I would consider it even less easy to take a knife away from an agitated adult who fears for her life. I know there are desperate, crazy criminals out there who might be able to wrestle a knife away from a victim and use it against her. But I don't think it's as easy as is often stated to get a knife away from someone defending their life. It's interesting that the reverse is never stated: trained martial artists do not believe there is much chance of getting the knife away from an attacker and using it against him. So why is it often stated that a knife can be taken away from a victim and used against her?
If you ever train with a live blade, the idea of grabbing the knife away from the other person becomes increasingly theoretical. A person highly trained in weapons disarming might be able to do it. And I guess we can't dismiss the possiblity that an attacker could be highly skilled in knife disarming. But even a competent martial artist is not going to disarm a live blade too easily, at least, not without sacrificing personal safety. Try it out, if you have a traininer partner you trust. Get a live blade and have the other person attack you and try to take the blade away while you use it to defend yourself. Most people who value their own hide won't come close enough to get cut. Someone who is intent on getting the blade away might endure a few cuts but most will stop short of getting severed arteries. And someone who truly does not care about their own safety might be able to get the blade away if they don't mind losing a lot of blood. Whether or not they will be in any shape to wield it afterwards is questionable.


Great points to bring up Rachel! And I largely agree with you.

Just from my own myopic point of view, everything has a risk. Fighting empty-handed has a risk. Fighting with a weapon has a risk. Not fighting has a risk. I can accept risk, I just personally seek to mininimize it.

A hit to the head or neck is enough to make me drop whatever it is I am carrying. For reasons outside the scope of this discussion, I'm more vulnerable to that kind of impact than most others. I personally am more interested in stopping someone before they get close enough to hit my head. What intresets me is a weapon that can extend my reach, such as my laptop in it's shoulderbag, or even a stick or a club. (Natch, the ultimate way to extend one's reach is with a firearm but I'm not licensed.)



I believe that if the person with the knife is willing to use it, even if they are not highly trained, it will not be so easy to get the knife away and use it against them. That's just my opinion. That said, I don't carry a knife anymore myself, although I do carry other kinds of sharp objects. I am looking into getting one for self-protection, though.
Best,
Rachel

Willing to use it is a big if for me. Not by coincidence, I don't live in a dangerous place and don't get scared in to thinking I need to pack on a regular basis. I don't have a false sense of security...I just haven't had enough mental reinforcement to come to grips with cutting a baddie.

I do think that my mind will change a lot with training. I think as I get more comfortable with a weapon, I'd be more confident in using it. I may also find a knife that works for me...Mike Pick, for example (a gent who is a veteran and Kenpo hotshot) has a knife design with a wrist lanyard which may mean that if I do lose my grip from a hit, the knife wouldn't fall to the ground.

But, without training, unless I have a weapon that extends my reach, I personally think I'm better off keeping both hands free to protect my head by blocking and punching. In the future though...who knows? :)

[Si-Je]

Personally, I'd much prefer open hand to carrying a weapon.

1. my art doesn't require strength, height, youth, or athleticsm.
a. plus, I'm pregnant now and still training as before.
2. a weapon can be taken away very easily. now you've added another variable to the already unknown equation. We must now fight over control of a weapon.
3. you may not be able to get to the weapon in time when taken by surprise. and we all know that's how women get attacked mostly.
4. legal issues, sure. Being in Texas, I can carry a firearm if I like.
5. Children and innocent by standers. a gun would place others in danger too. a knife can do this as well.

I've carried knives in the past when I was younger, and lived in rougher neighborhoods. But never actually used it for anything other than opening boxes. lol!
Most times I encountered danger it happened so fast that to dig my knife out of my pocket would have wasted valuable time. And I had to deal with an attacker bare handed first before I could get to the weapon. And then, do you really want their blood on you? Kinda like winning the battle, but losing the war. ;)

Many people and martial artists seem to think that women "need" weapons in the street or when truely attacked. This is unfortunate, and kind of raises the question, they why take martial arts at all, I'll just get a gun?
When trained properly, a woman can be as devastating as a man in a fight. And I mean, more mental, and emotional training than physical. fitness is not the issue here. Brains are.

Don't hit a big strong muscular guy in the stomach, kick the knee (heavy guys usually have pretty bad knees) groin, throat, temple, kidney (no muscle there) inside of the theigh can drop him quick, back of the neck (third lumbar will kill) at the hinge of the jaw (will break with little strength) of course the nose are just a few. Train for these spots to strike and these kind of spots only. If you train for tournament fine, but for self defense, you must train completely different.

Fight smart, not hard. ;)

[Tez3]

Over here carrying firearms aren't an option, even most of our police officers don't carry them. I carry a kubatan on a big bunch of keys which I keep in my hand when I'm walking, though I rarely walk in cities (I live in a rural area where the sheep outnumber the locals - if you've ever seen the programme All Creatures Great and Small or read James Herriott's books, that's where I live). We can even keep our doors unlocked. That's not to say there haven't been attacks, the nearby Garrison is a problem at the moment as the Army has been recruiting Fijians to join up and they are very violent towards women.
Can I add that a hammerfist to the collarbone of the attacker will break it nicely and render both arms useless? An important thing too I think is that if the attacker does get you to the ground is that the fight isn't lost,there's still a lot you can do. I know that when I did just karate based training I was told that would be enough to fight off anyone. When I changed clubs and started doing MMA and reality based SD as well I soon found out it wasn't. A simple thing like knowing which of the attackers arms to go for removing of he's got you in a rear naked choke makes all the difference to your chances of survival. Most women say that if attacked they would go for the man's groin (assuming the attack is by a man!) I think most men expect that and protect themselves, I totally agree for going for the knees, inside leg etc. Don't stand and fight if there is any chance of getting away but if you have to fight, fight mean and nasty!

[Si-Je]

Another good tip:
Don't fight a man face to face head on. Try to get to the side or rear of him. We do this in Wing Chun. You step forward into the attack to take away their fighting space so they can't attack again while kicking, stepping, and punching at the same time.
Work your way to their side, strike the side of the head, neck, ears, ribs, kidneys, kick the side of the knee (will break much easier), etc.
Plus, it's easier to run from this position without turning your back completely to them as you would have to when facing them directly.
Military commanders call it "flanking". sure makes a strong opponent weaker, rather than taking them head on and dealing with their total strength. Plus, they only have one side to attack you back with, one leg one arm.
Fight smart.