Hapkido Kwans

[Disco]

The latest count of Hapkido Kwans was listed at around 78. I've tried to find the names of these kwans but came up dry. Does anybody here on MT/Hapkido have a listing or know where to go to get a list of all the Kwans? Thanks in advance for any help.
:asian:

[arnisador]

I'm curious about this too.

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=917

[Disco]

Found This.
On budoseek.net in the hapkido section / Thread "Chang Young-Shil", 2nd page has a listing of kwans.

This only gives the kwans that the KHF recognizes. There are lots more but through the KIDO. I can't find a listing from them yet, but I'm trying. Man I thought TKD was bad. They have nothing on the hapkido world:p

[arnisador]

I also would have thought TKD was more split than HKD!

[Hal]

The following are Kwans listed as member dojang of the Korea Hapkido
Federation on their webpage: note this is the real KHF website

http://hapkidokorea.org

1. Kyung Moo Kwan (GM KIM Nam Jae, 8th Dan)
2. Eul Ji Kwan (GM KIM Hyung Sang, 8th Dan)
3. Yun Moo Kwan (GM LEE Ho Il, 8th Dan)
4. Yoo Sool Won (GM YOO Sang Ho, 9th Dan)
5. Jin Jung Kwan (GM LEE Chang Soo, 8th Dan)
6. Ki Moo Kwan (GM IM Hyun Yong)
7. Pyung Moo Kwan
8. Soong Moo Kwan (GM LEE Jung Moon)
9. Hak Moo Kwan (GM LEE Yong Sik)
10. Kum Moo Kwan (GM JUNG Soon Sung, 8th Dan)
11. Kuk Sool Kwan (GM KIM Woo Tak)
12. Dong Yi Kwan (GM KANG Tae Soo)
13. Bong Moo Kwan (GM IM Myung Sup, 8th Dan)
14. Yun Moo Kwan - Kwang Ju
15. Huek Joo Kwan (GM JIN Jong Moon, 9th Dan)
16. Moo Moo Kwan (GM KIM Yong Chang)
17. Chun Ji Kwan (GM KIM Byung Soo, 8th Dan)
18. Se Sung Kwan (GM JUNG Ik Chul, 7th Dan)
19. Kuh Ho Kwan (GM CHUN Won Il, 8th Dan)
20. Koryo Chun Tong Moo Ye Won
21. Kang Moo Kwan (GM CHUN Man Bae)
22. Hyo Chun Kwan (GM YOO Dong Gu, 7th Dan)
23. So Rim Kwan
24. Song Won Kwan (GM JUNG Bong Ok, 8th Dan)
25. Yoo Sung Kwan (GM KIM Nam Kyu)
26. Yon Bi Kwan (GM KIM Jung Soo)
27. Han Moo Kwan (GM SONG Young Ki, 9th Dan)
28. Yoo Sool Kwan (GM BYUN Young Dae)
29. Da Mool Moo Kwan
30. Se Sim Kwan (GM YOO Ki Hyun, 7th Dan)
31. Ki Sim Kwan (GM SUH Kwang Won, 8th Dan)
32. Duk Moo Kwan (GM SUH Myung Il, 8th Dan)
33. Kwang Moo Kwan (GM NO Kwang Yul, 8th Dan)
34. Yong Moo Kwan (GM LEE Dong Woo, 9th Dan)
35. Chun Do Kwan (GM YU Chun Hee, 8th Dan)
36. In Moo Kwan (GM NA In Dong, 9th Dan)
37. Tae Moo Kwan (GM JUNG Ki Chul, 8th Dan)
38. Kun Moo Kwan (GM HAN Kyu Il, 8th Dan)
39. Soo Do Kwan (GM OH Jae Suk)
40. Chung Kyum Kwan (GM CHOI Suk Hwan)

[arnisador]

That's a lot of info.!

[Disco]

Are there two different KHF's? The first listing of kwans I got was from a GM Hackworth who is listed as the U.S. rep for the KHF. He states there are at present 78 kwans registered. (?)

On a second note, would you know how many kwans are registered with the KIDO and do you have any opinion of those kwans under the KIDO.

Thanks for any info you care to share. :asian:

[abzack]

Hey, the kwan where I studied is listed.
8. Soong Moo Kwan (GM LEE Jung Moon)
(except he writes his name YI Chong Mun or LEE Chong Mun)
Anyone else here from this kwan?

[Hal]

Dan(Black Bellt) rank table
The KHF has the Dan(Black Belt) ranking table. In the KHF, to promote in Dan ranking, one has to fulfill some requirements, not only the ability in Hapkido, but also the training terms and the age. And to be a master, name to the person having over 4 Dan, one has to complete the Master Course Seminar. Please refer to this information for your Dan test and training. (Dan level) (Min. terms of training) (Min. Age) Begin ¢¡ 1 Dan 1yr. - 1 Dan ¢¡ 2 Dan 1yr. - 2 Dan ¢¡ 3 Dan 2yrs. 17yrs. old 3 Dan ¢¡ 4 Dan 3yrs. 23yrs. old 4 Dan ¢¡ 5 Dan 4yrs. 30yrs. old 5 Dan ¢¡ 6 Dan 5yrs. 35yrs. old 6 Dan ¢¡ 7 Dan 5yrs. 41yrs. old 7 Dan ¢¡ 8Dan 5yrs. 46yrs. old 8 Dan ¢¡ 9 Dan 5yrs. 51yrs. old

[Hal]

¿Ã?ß: Director, KHF (yesb279@hanmail.net)
»®?‰¿Ã¡ˆ: http://hapkidokorea.org/main.htm
2003/7/1(»!=) 18:30 (MSIE6.0,Windows98) 221.146.1.207 1152x864

Facing the establishment of the KHF world organiza °ÿ ±§?̺? ±€/ ?Ò<pi>ʺ? ±€ /?Ìø<pi> »—º’¿? ±€/ ¡§ƒ°¿?¿Œ ±€ µÓ¿? ªË¡¶ µÀ¥œ¥Ÿ.


Facing the establishment of the KHF world organization....!

My name is Sung Book Bae, the director of the KHF.

We, the KHF, are preparing the establishment of a world organization as a plan
ned project in order to promote Hapkido more systematically, which is already i
ntroduced and practiced by many people all over the world.

For last half century, Hapkido is introduced and developed proudly in the aren
a of world martial arts only by our senior masters without any support or help fr
om the Korean government unlike Taekwondo. The share to succeed and deve
lop Hapkido one dimension higher making it as the world best martial art is left
before us now.

The KHF admits that there were not enough supports for many masters workin
g abroad, and because of special aspects of being abroad, the lacking of the
KHF power caused lots of chaos and troubles.

But, with this as a momentum, the KHF will do our best to support our master
s working overseas, and try to stop all the acts and organizations using the n
ame of the KHF without permission, as the KHF has never authorized any act
s and organizations officially till now except Master Kwan-Young Lee as the re
presentative of France.

As one of these procedures, the KHF is gathering information about Hapkido p
eople acting important countries or cities all over the world. And with these info
rmation, the KHF select people as regional representatives regardless their nati
onalities, sex and colors by this September. With them, the KHF will do everyt
hing positively for Hapkido development.

The KHF has the plan to hold the establishment ceremony of the KHF world or
ganization with the presence of all the regional representatives on the 6th of th
is December in Seoul, Korea.

Thank you.

* Any inquiry or requirement is welcome to Mr. Sung Book Bae, the director o
f the KHF.
Tel: 82-2-3437-3530, Cell: 82-11-258-7106, Email: yesb279@hotmail.com

[Hal]

The KHF Dan Rank Test and Application
View actual file
The KHF Dan Rank Test and Application

Only the KHF Dan Rank Exam. Committee have the right to test students for Dan. All masters only have the right to let their students apply to the Dan test. But still some more prerequisites.

1. You have to be a certified KHF master. To get the KHF Master's Certificate, You have to be higher than 4th Dan of the KHF and have to complete the KHF Master's Course. Only the registered masters can hold the right to send their students to the Dan test.
The master's seminar is usually in the last week of the April every year. So for masters who need the certificate right now to open their own Dojang(school), the KHF ask them to submit a written promise for the coming master's seminar and the fee. Then the KHF issues them the certificate. The fee is about 200 US$.

2. You have to register your school to the KHF in your name. Students registered there are regarded as the KHF students. And only they are possible to get the KHF Dan. For school registration, the KHF charges 500 US$ for all schools without exception. But for schools outside of Korea, the KHF is going to set up a special period for free registration, for example, by the June 2004.


Sung Book Bae
Director, the Korea Hapkido Federation

[Kodanjaclay]

Disco,

The list you received from Dr. Hackworth is accurate. Oh Se Lim will be at his school this month should you have any questions for him. All KHF members are invited to attend this event, and indeed are expected to participate. I have heard that Mr. Bae will be present as well, who is a subordinate to Oh Se Lim, the President.


I may or may not be present because I just found out that I'm about to be a pappy, so that changes the situation for me. Danielle has no family here, so I will not leave her here to her own devices.

[Hal]

Frank,
The list I submitted was from the KHF website in Korea i had it translated .

"Best wishes to you and Danielle"



Hal

[Kodanjaclay]

Hal,

The site has not been completed, according to the information that I have. With any luck I'll see Grandmaster Lim next month and ask him about it.

Thank you for your sentiments, I'll pass them along to Danielle.

[Hal]

Remember when she is expecting '"chunky monkey rules" my wife craved oranges ,second child chicken wings .


Hal

[Kodanjaclay]

Hal,

Danielle is a monkey according to the Chinese zodiac... lol... thatnks for encouraging her. (LOL).

I did find out that Mr. Bae will be present with Mr. Lim. I'm sincerely hoping that I can go, but I don't know considering she is pregnant, and I am very hesitant to go very far... I'm not being prudish am I? At any rate, I will see to it that we get some clarification, as I think it is sorely needed.

[Hal]

Frank ,

you mentioned GrandMaster Lim. Do you mean Grand Master Oh, Se lim ? In korea Last name is spoken first. It would be GrandMaster Oh. He would be considered Hye Jung nim head of the federation.

Hal:confused:

[Kodanjaclay]

Hal,

Thank you. After almost 3 decades in Korean mudo, I still have not learned how to type well. Actually, it should b written Oh, Se Lim which is how he signs.It can also be romanized Oh, Se-Lim if one wants to be completely proper. There are however, times when I forget because I never use just his surname, I always say Oh Se Lim, or Yi Jae Whan, with the notable exception being Mr. Bae because I can never seem to get his name right. (lol). I figure its better than killing his name, and insulting him.

[rana_hapkido_panama2002]

Hi all and be blessed.

I, Ramon Navarro, 4th Dan Black belt and in charge of the International side of this art and assistant to Grand Master Park, Song Il 9th Dan and creator to Song Moo Kwan HapKiDo in the early ’70 came to the country of Panama in October 1976 so in this month of October I am inaugurating a Dojang branch for the Song Moo HapKiDo with an exhibition and at the end I will hand out rank certificates to all the participants of this exhibition that will be done by the students that passed the last test we held in July then I will give KwanjangNim Park a plaque of recognition for what he has done for this art here in the country of Panama.

HapKiDo started classes in the capital city of Panama, Panama on the 22 of October, 1976 (thought Mr. Park said it was the 24th so we celebrate it on this 24th ) and since most people are working until mid-day the exhibition will be at 2pm and will be covered by the media. Grand Master Park is a direct student to DojuNim Ji, Han Jae and received his 9th Dan after the seminar that Mr. Ji gave here in Panama in October of 1996.

Hope all that read this and are member of any HapKiDo styles that you keep enjoying this art and grow on your personality plus get motivated enough to spread it ! Teach other people what you have learned and if you are not an instructor or at teachers level then invite those that you would like to share this art with to come to the Dojang you attend at !

HAP

[Richard]

Since you are posting things from Mr. Bae's website I thought that you would like to see this:


The 1st Official KHF Dan(Black Belt) Test and Seminar in the USA




The KHF(Korea Hapkido Federation) is going to have the first official Dan(Black Belt) test and seminar event in the USA on this October 24-26. This event is being organized and prepared by a KHF master in the USA, Dr. Richard Hackworth, who is fully authorized for this event from the KHF President Se-Lim Oh . President Oh himself, some high ranking directors and masters are scheduled to be there.




This event will contribute as the beginning step to the higher dimension of Hapkido, not only for the development of the KHF but also a unified Hapkido community around the globe. So all the Hapkido people, masters and students, the KHF people and non-KHF people, are invited to participate in this coming together of Hapkido masters of the world for the betterment of Hapkido and ourselves.




The details and further information could be got from the web site "http://www.hapkidokorea.org" or "http://koreahapkidofederation.com"







Sincerely,

Sung Book Bae

Director, the Korea Hapkido Federation

:rofl:

[Kodanjaclay]

Mr. Hackworth,

Is it true that there will be an anouncement by Oh, Se-Lim that some of the American "grandmasters" who claim high ranking KHF rank, will be exposed as not having legitimate rank from the KHF, by its president?

In particular, I believe that one of the patrons of this very site will be one mentioned by name by him? If this is the case, then the public needs to know. Politics are one thing. Fraud is quite another, and quite unethical.

If we are going to hold ourselves out to be professionals, then we need to act like it, and not defraud anyone. Though there are bad apples in each industry, we are supposedly teaching a better way of life, and kinda have a sacred trust with the public, as it tends to be naive.

[Richard]

Frank, the names of these people will be publicly announced during the Oh Se Lim seminar October 24-26 in Ocoee, Florida. After that they will be announced on the Martial Arts News Show on the martial arts radio network at www.martialartsradionetwork.com . These people have run out of places to hide. No matter what false documents they have show their students, the world will know the truth about them after this event. They were all contacted and given an amnest period to actually join so that they could train and earn recognized ranking through one of the Kwans or even the KHF headquarters, but most of them are still hanging on to thier lies that they have been using for several years. Segments of the Hapkido community have been very supportive of these clowns in the past but I am sure the treatment they will get after being exposes will be very unforgiving.
:soapbox:

[miguksaram]

Mst Whalen,

Your from the NE area right?

Mst Hackworth,

You mentioned that one of the frauds was from the NE. You wouldn't be talking about Mst. Whalen would you? Wow I hope not.:shrug:

[greendragon]

Master Whalen a fraud??? Ha ha ha, I have known Master Whalen for over 11 years now, have been on the mat with him, have trained under him and started my Hapkido training under one of his first generation students in 1988,, IF anyone on here believes he is a fraud all you would have to do is go train with him,, take a class or just hop on the mat with him, then you will know for yourself. He is easy to find. His Hapkido is done on the mat, not on a radio show, or by the keyboard, he isn't an "administrator" he just works out and stays in shape by doing the Hapkido he loves! I guess his Hapkido is alot closer to his heart than his wallet or ego?
No offense to anyone on here but to tell you the truth I couldn't care less about anyone affiliated with the KHF, I just plain don't care. I DO Hapkido, I don't talk about it, sell it, buy it, administer it, DJ it, or anything else. I couldn't care less if Jesus Christ was a KHF member, if HE didn't get on the mat instead of in front of the camera I wouldn't care about his opinion either. So if someone I don't know from Adam "tells" me someone who I've worked out and known for over a decade is a fraud, I should believe them,, come folks aren't we grown up now! Hapkido is not something you talk about it is something you DO, everyday,, it is just that simple and if you are not DOING it then maybe you missed the main idea about it in the first place...

Michael Tomlinson

[Kodanjaclay]

How is it that someone who teaches Hapkido 5 days a week, is not doing Hapkido? From what I understand there are those who claim KHF rank, who do not have it, and irrespective of their skill, that is fraud. Period. Don't believe me? Take it to court and find out for yourself. There were alot of people I trained with, including Koreans, that were impressive until I met some of the KHF people at Richard Hackworth's school. We are talking about bodyguards for the president of the ROK. Now if that is not someone qualified, then who is? People who have done it all their lives don''t know it? Come on Mike. How would you feel if one of your students suddenly claimed to more about your subject that you teach than you, and was supported, but not sanctioned by the state. Its exactly the same principle.

[miguksaram]

Originally posted by Kodanjaclay
From what I understand there are those who claim KHF rank, who do not have it, and irrespective of their skill, that is fraud.

And there are those who claim Grandmastery when in fact they are barely old enough to hold their master position. Yet we don't call that fraud, we call that misrepresentation.

There are those that claim they want to unify HKD, however, they look down upon all those who aren't in their organization. They place lies on their website.....ooops...I'm sorry they place half truths in their website. They place pictures in magazines saying they were in a Grandmaster meeting, when in fact they showed up at the last minute with a camera and their Sunday-go-to-church suit and take a picture. There are those who claim friendship with other Grandmasters but then call them skirt chasers. Yet they call others frauds. Hmmmm....interesting. Is it a piece of paper or is it character that makes one a fraud?




You mean to tell me Mst. Hackworth was a bodyguard to the President of Korea? Or are you saying that Mst. Hackworth trained bodyguards of the President of Korea?

[QUOTE]How would you feel if one of your students suddenly claimed to more about your subject that you teach than you, and was supported, but not sanctioned by the state. Its exactly the same principle.

How is it the same principle? Are you saying Mst. Whalen is a junior to Mst. Hackworth?

BTW....Mst. Hackworth, when were you stationed in Korea? What year? You claimed infatry, which division? Since you said you were there while I was in diapers I assume 1970 which, give or take a few would make you about 51 right?

[Kodanjaclay]

First off.... don't put words in my mouth. The people i met at Master Hackworth's school were, and still are, Blue house bodyguards. They provided the training, not Master Hackworth. Second, I never said anything about Master Whalen. I am not on the inside track, and I will not engage in politics. incidentally, misrepresentation IS fraud. Like it or not. That is the way things are.

Now I don't know what half truths you are talking about. Richard Hackworth IS the KHF rep for the United States per Oh, Se Lim, and it will be made official publicly by both he and MAster Bae. From what I understand, it is the third appointment.

Richard Hackworth is not necessarily talking down about any organization in my interpretation save for those who are misleading the public. Unfortunately, there are a heckuvalot of them.

Now, I will state this one publicly, and it is the same thing I have told Hal Whalen, Ray Terry and Richard Hackworth. I am not interested in any of the politics. I am interested in bettering myself, and my students. There are those who do not agree with that feeling, and that is there perogative, but it is my life and that is how I choose to live it. I choose to do the best I can and to lead my students the best I can. The one thing I can offer is ntegrity and I have a very strong sense of both that, and loyalty. Anyone who shares the same vision I do, I welcome as a fellow traveller. Anyone who does not, I sincerely hope you find the right path for you. That simple, no more, no less. But the attacks on one another need to stop. Its childish and to be honest, most of us would punish our children for exactly the same thing, would they not Jeremy?

[miguksaram]

Mst. Clay,

First of all I never said anything about Mst. Hackworth's appointment as a KHF was a half truth. Let me point out what I mean by half truths:

"The KHF will always be the largest officially recognized Hapkido organization in Korea and the world headquarters of our art."

I always thought the Kido-hae was the largest organization of HKD sanctioned by the Korean government?

"There are many well meaning instructors who are not affiliated with the KHF; however, they have an ethical and moral obligation to themselves and their students to belong to the appropriate, legitimate Hapkido organization. This will allow them to attend the required training to become a properly licensed instructor and chartered school."

So those who are not KHF are not legitimate instructors and can not teach legitimate HKD? This is totally BS. This is simple propoganda and bad one at that. It misleads the public into thinking that KHF is the ONLY legitimate organization sanctioned by the Korean government. In fact there are several organizations that are sanctioned by the Korean government.


"Their students pay good money for training and deserve to have the educational and training standards of the world's most prestigious Hapkido organization"

That is strictly an opinoin again misleading the general public into false impressions.


"Some instructors have been involved with "Hapkido" for more than 30 years and still don't meet our minimum requirements to become a licensed instructor "

So this is saying that they can do HKD at all? Or they can't do it according to KHF standards? Again...just more misleading crap.

"To be a student at a school that is not affiliated with the NHA and KHF means that you can never hope to get the training required to become an official black belt or instructor "

How f'n arrogant can you be? First off you don't have to be a NHA member in order to get your KHF certificate. These are two sperate beasts. Secondly to have the balls to sit there and tell everyone else that they are not legitimate because they are not sending money towards the NHA is just ridiculous. What is an official "black belt"? I guess my 5th dan HKD instructor is not an official black belt? I would love to see the person who wrote that stuff get on the mat with him. It would be quite interesting.

These are misleading half truths.

" I am not interested in any of the politics. I am interested in bettering myself, and my students. "

With all due respect sir, don't kid yourself.
"Is it true that there will be an anouncement by Oh, Se-Lim that some of the American "grandmasters" who claim high ranking KHF rank, will be exposed as not having legitimate rank from the KHF, by its president?

In particular, I believe that one of the patrons of this very site will be one mentioned by name by him? If this is the case, then the public needs to know. Politics are one thing. Fraud is quite another, and quite unethical."

What is this here? If you are not being political, then I need to know the new definition. Somehow, somewhere, you became a pawn in this political mess regardless of what you may think. Sooner or later you may be asked to choose which side you are on, if you haven't already.

BTW..I never punish my children for standing up against that which the feel is wrong.

[Kodanjaclay]

First of all... I did not write any of the information you attribute, so I am not being political.

Second, the KHF is the government sanctioned body of Hapkido, not the Kido. I beleive at one time the Kido was, but for whatever reaosn that is not the case any longer. Further, the KHF is headed by a government official, the head of the KCIA.

But now that I have gotten my position out in the open, its like this. I am a KHF Master. With a KHF certificate signed by Oh, Se Lim. That position has been taken. I am a KHF person. Now, many of the things that you are complaining about is their choice of words. I may not like what you or anyone else has to say, but I served in the military to defend the rights of Americans. One is the right to Free speech. Nowhere have they mislead anyone, as far as I know, and if you have proof, which can stand up in a court of law then present it. If you cannot, what you say is relegated to opinion and heresay.

I do not think that one's ability to practice Hapkido has anything to do with one's affiliation. I never have, but I have met all kinds, including those who wanted to be KHF members, but could not pass a testing board. One of those people runs an organization based in the east. I am not going to say his name out of respect. Not for him, but for the owner of this board, who does not pay hosting fees just to have mess like this go on his property.

I have been asked by people like Mr. Terry to take a satand against Mr. Hackworth. How childish is that? First off, I don't even really know Mr. Terry. He has never presented anything to me, other than his words, that would indicate that Mr. Hackworth has been untruthful. Mr. Hackworth, conversly, has taken people to Korea countless times, brings KHF people here to run the events, and I mean like demo team members and the like. He has gotten his people training by the National SWAT team and others. Having grown up in Korean martial art, and dealing with Koreans all my life, I know good and well if something was wrong with one of his certificates they would have said something about it. They have inspected his certificates, and never said anything. Now, why on earth would I disbelieve what I have seen with my own two eyes? For words written on an unsecure eletronic media? This is the internet... not a secure infranet. Hack, even this site... you have no idea who is using my screenname... it could be me, it cold not.... does that makese sense to you? It should.

I am not saying that you have to like or respect him, nor am I saying the same about him. What I am saying is that I believe this mess is getting out of hand, and one would presume that we would have all outgrown this once we got out of elementary school. Like me or my choices or not, doesn't matter. What does matter is that any martial art is essentially a solitary commitment. In the end, you must decide what is important to you. My practice is more important to me than any association or anyone on the intenet. I have been practicing long before Iwas online, and I suspect I will still be practicing when I finally decide to get rid of my service. Its that simple. Nothing more, nothing less.

Besides, what good does it really do to participate in the dojang wars? Is it really helping? To me, it looks like a bunch of kids. That hurts our art, and the impression we give others. irrespective of organization, we each are ambassadors of that art. If you are going to be an ambassador of any art, you must present your most positive face.

Now as I said before, to hold oneself out to be a member of any organization that one is not a member of is fraud. Anyone who does so, and accepts money for services based on that belief, is a criminal. Sorry, if you don't believe me, contact your local DA and ask them. Its true. Now, I'm not naming names for two reasons... one, its not my place, and two I'm not sure of who the people are. Oh Se Lim is making the announcement, not Frank Clay. If master so and so is one of those people, then I sincerely hope his business goes down. He is just hurting us all by lying. If master ABC is a member, then irrespective of what Kwan he is a part of, then I support him, because I am a Federation member, and I choose to stick with members of the Federation. I do not need to justify this, so don't ask me to. And that goes for Master Whalen. Irrespective of what anyone says about him, if Oh se Lim indicated he was a KHF blackbelt, then as far as I am concerned he si one of my seniors and I will stand with him, as Federation members, because that is my position. Not because of who he is or what he knows. Because he is a part of our family, and family sticks together, even if it occsasionally has words.

Now I don't punish my kids for standing up for their beliefs either, so long as they do it with respect. If they want to degenerate into useless bickering I do. Why? Because in the corporate world, that is what is expected of them. I want my kids to be successful, not working themselves to death working a blue collar job, that they may never be able to retire from. My father's father did that as well as my mother's... and in the end, theyhad nothing to show. I want my kids to do better, so I will teach them the best way I know to respond to these things. Soemtimes it means just leaving them [these things] alone.

Have I better clarified my position?

[miguksaram]

"First of all... I did not write any of the information you attribute, so I am not being political."

Sir, I never said you wrote that. I was refering to that as the half truths of my original statement. The only thing I attributed to you was : "Is it true that there will be an anouncement by Oh, Se-Lim that some of the American "grandmasters" who claim high ranking KHF rank, will be exposed as not having legitimate rank from the KHF, by its president?"

Perhaps I should have placed my remark after this quote to clarify.


In principle you and I are on the same wave length. You stand for KHF and that I respect that. I am for martial arts in general because the average person doesn't look at organizations they look at it as a whole. If a man is fraud in the KHF, they don't think, hey KHF has bad people. They think hey martial artists are bad people. This reflects on the whole community. If one man is abusing his position and claiming ranks or status. It is bad for the whole community. I to have 19 years of my 23 years in the Korean martial arts. I have grown up not only in the Korean MA community, but in its culture from my friends and my wife of 11 years.

When I hear someone attacking and belittling others, making threats or spin doctoring events about people I know, I get extremely upset, because to me that person has no honor. I have heard it said many times by others "Just ignore it and don't bother" Sometimes you just can't ignore it. When that happens it allows the problem to get worse not just for some but for all. To paraphrase a saying; True evil is when good people see evil doings and do nothing at all to stop it.

If nothing else sir, please understand one thing, I have nothing against you personally. Though we may be on opposite sides of the debate, I would gladly welcome you into my home to break bread (or open beers) and talk NON ORGANIZED martial arts. :)

[Kodanjaclay]

I would be honored to do so. This ceaseless bickering needs to stop. If more people felt like we did, maybe we could get a recolution going.

Speaking of non-organized arts, what is your feeling on some of the "family" arts? I have been doing alot of training in them and am finding the lack of a govorning body to be refreshing.

[miguksaram]

By family you mean other Korean arts, I would have to say I like not having to deal with the organizations. When I sign with an instructor, I do it for the fact that I find him or her to be a competent martial artist. I don't do it because they belong to XYZ Orgnanization. How many times will a Org. board actually interact with me in my training? Maybe once or twice a year? My instructor is there with me every step of the way. I trust their judgement above all else. Perhaps it was the way I was raised in the MA world. I was only under one organization at any given time and that was the Kido-hae, and that happened only when my instructor took the advice of his senior and got involved. Before that he was not part of it. Now I have a big cert. that told me what my rank was. Big deal. My instructor told me the same thing but with a smaller cert. :)

Funny thing was that technically I should be at least a 5th dan in the WTF. However, even though I practiced I never tested. Why? Simple belief that I didn't feel paying a butt load of money to a board of people who don't know me from spam was worth a piece of paper. The result, I stayed a first dan for over 15 years. I finally started testing again because I am opening a school soon and the pieces of paper on the wall does help (though I hate to admit it) :)

Training without the pressure of the orgs or having to play nice-nice with someone because they could hault your progress is very refreshing.

[Disco]

Mr. Clay, congradulations on the new arrival. Wishing easy delivery, good health and long life:asian:

OK, so the KHF has at last count 78 kwans that they recognize.
Does anybody have the number or a listing for the kwans of the Kido or is it Kido-Hae? I think there is at least one other organization also, the name escapes me at the moment. Any info on kwans from them would also be nice. I have heard the total number of all kwans was at 260.

I have no intention of trying to turn this into a debate of mine is better than yours. This is strictly a fact finding endeavor. I know there seems to be hard feelings between some factions in Hapkido. Don't want to bring any of that into the mix. Just looking for simple information and numbers. Appriciate any and all who may be able to contribute. :D

[miguksaram]

According to the Kido-hae website, http://www.kidohae.net , there are 31 different styles represented by the Kido-hae. I guess they would be the Baskin Robbins of the Korean martial art organizations. :)

[Kodanjaclay]

I have always thought that was a funny line. Sad but it seems very true.

[greendragon]

Mikugsaram writes:
<<There are those that claim they want to unify HKD, however, they look down upon all those who aren't in their organization. They place lies on their website.....ooops...I'm sorry they place half truths in their website. They place pictures in magazines saying they were in a Grandmaster meeting, when in fact they showed up at the last minute with a camera and their Sunday-go-to-church suit and take a picture. There are those who claim friendship with other Grandmasters but then call them skirt chasers. Yet they call others frauds. Hmmmm....interesting. Is it a piece of paper or is it character that makes one a fraud?>>


YAHTZEE!!! Now there is a concept..

Michael Tomlinson
;)

[fringe_dweller]

Wow, I don't come to the board for six months and look what happens!

In my small travels in the world of hapkido, it seems that there are two (maybe three) camps. Pro Dr. Hackworth and anti Dr. Hackworth (and the "I don't care" people).

Never having trained with him I have no opinion on whether he is legit.

The one opinion I do have is that all the bickering that goes on within the community really hurts our ability to move forward. People (on both sides) try to win converts over to their way of thinking and hkd becomes a political party rather than a martial art! It would take a big man to extend his hand in conciliation to try and put an end to this whole debacle.



There are many well meaning instructors who are not affiliated with the KHF; however, they have an ethical and moral obligation to themselves and their students to belong to the appropriate, legitimate Hapkido organization. This will allow them to attend the required training to become a properly licensed instructor and chartered school.

I have to say this seems a little arrogant and could probably be worded somewhat better. It makes out that unless an instructor is part of the KHF they are not legitamate! If those same instructors try to certify students into the KHF then it's a problem but if not then I can't see where the problem lies.

Respectfully

[glad2bhere]

Dear Folks:

I took the list that was posted towards the front of this string and began to do random checks on GOOGLE, ALTA VISTA and YAHOO. Has anyone else noticed how little published material there is regarding these various schools? I think its even MORE curious when you consider that some folks interpret "kwan" to mean "style" and that, by extension, these various "kwans" would theoretically be constellations for schools rather than just schools in and of themselves.

I also considered that despite there being over 70 kwans listed there are only a handful that anyone has had anything to do with. Nobody seems to know much about the other kwans--whether they are single schools OR whole styles. Just seems to be a bit odd and to me smacks of inflated numbers and misrepresentation. Its not as though one finds 73 kwangjang showing up at major events such as the recent meeting in Florida or even at events held in Korea.

BTW: Does anyone know the record attendence of kwanjang at any one event?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

Having watched some of the discussions regarding organizations and such on another site devoted to Hapkido, I look at things and some people now with a somewhat jaundice eye. To kind of expound on the previous post, the history link that was offered on another thread listed several styles/kwans of hapkido that had dates that only showed it to be in existance for a year or two. With that in mind, the person running this organization is a master businessman (I will give him that). To recognize all those kwans they have listed sure looks impressive and that most likely is their point. Hey, we here in America did make the inventor of the "PET ROCK" a millionaire. Is it illegal to acknowledge and use said acknowledgement for promotional reasons? I would have to say no! Now is it disreputable? That I would have to give a yes to.
Hey, I acknowledge the Justice League with Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman etc. Do they exist.....NO!

So how many real active kwans exist? Another question comes to mind. If they acknowledged all these kwans, why was it necessary for the U.S. rep to start his own kwan. Why couldn't the kwan/style he originally trained in surfice?

[whalen]

e List of KHF Non-Korean Masters in the world
This is the list of KHF masters over the 4th Dan level in the world.
If you have any question, please contact Director Sung-Book Bae.

(Tel: 82-2-3437-3530, 82-11-258-7106
Email: yesb279@hotmail.com )

* notice *
The masters listed below are from the data base
from 1997 to 2003. The names before 1997 will be
up-loaded soon.




¢Â THE 4TH DAN ¢Â

PHIPILE TAI-PA PINERD (FRANCE)
DIEGO FERNANDO RAMOS (COLOMBIA)
UWE NOLTING (GERMANY)
QUINTELIER PATRICK (BELGIUM)
MICHAEL BYRD (U.S.A.)
THOMAS HAUCH (GERMANY)
RONDY RAE MCKEE (U.S.A.)
JESUS CASTELLANOS PUEBLAS (SPAIN)
REZA VALI NEJAD (IRAN)
ROSE ANTONIO LAGIER (ARGENTINA)
BRUCE HOWES (AUSTRALIA)
MARK D HUME (U.S.A.)
RHOADES
ANTONIO MANUEL MARTINS FRAGA (PORTUGUESE)
JONATHAN KLEINEMAN (U.S.A.)
KONRAD SPILLMAN (U.S.A.)
MOLLET REMI (FRANCE)
WADE LANGIN (CANADA)
PLORENTIN ANDRE (FRANCE)
PHAM MINH PHUOC (VIETNAM)
FABIAN DUQUE (COLOMBIA)
COUET RAPHAEL (FRANCE)


¢Â THE 5TH DAN ¢Â

CHRISTIAN MEIER (U.S.A.)
FRANCISCO OSCAR TAJES (ARGENTINA)
MIHEE HACKWORTH (U.S.A.)
LIVIO BALOCCO NICOLAY (U.S.A.)
RONALD C. GARLAND (U.S.A.)
ANDREW SANDS (AUSTRALIA)
JOHN GILL (AUSTRALIA)


¢Â THE 6TH DAN ¢Â

HECTOR ALDERETE (ARGENTINA)
RICHARD HACKWORTH (U.S.A.)
SAMUEL G. PLUMB (G.B.)


¢Â THE 7TH DAN ¢Â

SCOTT SHOW (AUSTRALIA)
HOLCOMBE THOMAS (U.S.A.)
HAROLD L. WHALEN (U.S.A.)
JULIAN LIM (MALAYSIA)

[glad2bhere]

Dear Hal:

I think you may have messed-up. Are you SURE this is the whole list?

The only reason I ask is that you indicate the years 1997 to 2003 and there are a lot of people I expected to see listed who are not showing up. Is it possible that there is another list, perhaps an alternate or sub-organizational list? Perhaps the people not listed are on some sort of probationary period awaiting recognition once they have met organizational criteria? Is it possible that there is a separate list for people who have been "grandfathered" into the organization or received "honorary" or "administrative" rank rather than the more well-recognized certs based on the standard time in grade/testing requirements? Again, ordinarily I wouldn't make any comments on this as the Koreans are known for being pretty good on their attention to detail. However, it seems they must have slipped up as there is at least one persons' name I recognize who has presented himself as a "grandmaster" which I think is an 8th dan rank and your list only shows him to be a 6th dan. Could the Koreans have made a mistake?

Sorry for all the dumb questions but I feel like I must be overlooking something pretty important, and not understanding how the KHF works I certainly would not want to slander or libel a foreign national, especially from one of our allies in the fight against international terrorism. However, there are simply too many telling omissions. Something doesn't seem right. Help?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[miguksaram]

Mst. Sims,

Unfortunately that is the whole list. You may notice there are some names missing (Mostly those to who dealt with Mr. H). This is a pity as many are now finding out what problems he has caused. I last heard through the rumor mill that he is trying to get the KHF to recognize kwan certs that he distributed. I heard he was trying to do the same with KTA certs. Pity.

[Disco]

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought KTA certs were only issued in Korea for TKD. Why would a Hapkido Organization recognize another style? Little confusing......

[miguksaram]

You are correct that the KTA is only for Koreans and only for TKD. These are two seperate issues. He apparently distributed dan certifications under the KTA's name, when in fact he has not ranking with the KTA or the KKW. Yet another scam being pulled that he is now trying to make good on.

[Kodanjaclay]

I received one of each. Stay away from this man. Far far away.

[Disco]

Would you know if the KTA or the KKW is going to issue a statement stipulating that the certificates given by this person are not valid? One would think that they would be forced to correct this just for the sake of their own organizational reputation.

[miguksaram]

At this time I have spoken with the KTA only. They have told me that there are no foreigners registered in the the KTA and that all Dan certificates are done through the KKW. Since the certificates were supposed to be Dan certs, they told me I would have to contact the KKW for this. I have contacted one person from there and I am waiting for a reply. If I do not hear from him sooner I will contact the KKW directly with the information that I have and see what can be done.

[glad2bhere]

OK--- I am throwing this out to anybody who has more insight into this than I.

1.) People have taken money as appropriate fees for testing individuals.

2.) The individuals have gotten their certificates (right?).

3.) The certificates that have been received are organizational certs--- or at least facsimiles of organizational certs (right?).

4.) The organization official roster does not reflect that the organization has awareness of these individuals--- or at least the rank for which they received they certification/facsimiles.

Three questions then come to mind.

a.) What recourse do the individuals with the questionable certs have with the organization? (read also: What is their official status regarding the art and organization?)

b.) What actions will the organization take to vouchsafe their integrity and reputation?

c.) Where did the money go between the individual who provided the funds and the organization which was to have received those funds and record the individuals' standing with the organization?

Please understand that what is driving my questions is more than simply purient interest. I am a member in good standing with the WHF and take considerable pride in my membership. Anytime members of the Hapkido community are in distress I believe it reflects on the entire community. I fervently believe now is the time for us all to watch carefully how these serious matters are resolved. Like the poet said, ".....there but for the grace of God...."

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kodanjaclay]

Bruce,

I wish I knew the answers. Better yet, I'd like to know how people like this are able to no avoid prosecution. If I did something like this, I have no doubt I would be incarcerated with the worms, under the facility.

People like this have taken it to a personal level by affected not only victims, but people who have tried to stand up for us, like say you, have been maliciously attacked and on various levels.

To anyone else, if you have any questions... email me. I'll be more than happy to share what I know, but you wont be happy.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Frank:

It is an article of my Buddhist faith that "what goes around comes around". I have no doubt that consequences will be visited upon those who have violated the trust put in them. However, that entire process is beyond me for the most part having been in place since time immemorial. My concern is more for the disenfranchised who have suddnely found their standing not merely called into question, but, effectively, non-existent. I cannot emphacize strongly enough that it is incumbant on the individuals in positions of influence to work together much as do various agencies when a community suffers a catastrophe'. Turning the coin over, and as much as the violated may want to punish the offender I think it is paramont that people who have been effected make known their needs so that leadership can be guided in address these issues. You can always find time to incarcerate people with the worms--- under the dochang--- later. :-)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

It will be very interesting if the organization in question (their certifications / facsimile), will address this problem and offer either support for those affected or at least do something against the party that perpetrated the falsehood. Please keep us informed of any outcome.

Respectfully :asian:

[DAC..florida]

I thought that maybe this would be an appropriate place to ask this question with recent events coming to light. Mr. Clay I would value your input particuarly because this may or may not be important. Mr. Hackworth is friends with Mr. Connolly of the Yudo Association. They seem to have very close ties as evident by emails I have seen from Mr. Connolly to a former member of this board.

Mr. Connolly claimed in his bio on his website the following ranks

Hapkido - 6th Dan
9th Dan in Kodokan Judo
9th Dan in the Oriental martial art of Judo
8th Dan in Aki Jujutsu
Tang Soo Do - 6th Dan
7th Dan in Taekwondo
5th Dan in Karate-do

This was copied from his site on 8-29-2003. Yet I looked today and it is different :confused:


Connolly holds an 8th Dan from the Ju-Jitsu International Federation. He is privileged to hold Dan rank in Judo from the Kodokan Judo Institute, and remains an unrepentant student of classical pre-Mifune Kodokan Judo.In the Korean tradition, Founding Grandmaster (ChongKwanJang) Connolly was the first non-Korean ever selected to head a traditional Korean martial art by the authorities in Korea. This fighting system, Chong Tong Yudo�, was jointly chartered by the Korea Judo Association and the ROK Yudo Association. Connolly is the current President of the International Yudo Federation. He holds a 9th Dan in the Olympic sport of Kodokan Judo from the Korea Judo Association and a 9th Dan in the Oriental martial art of Judo from the Republic of Korea Yudo Association. He also holds Grandmaster ranking in Hapkido and Taekwondo. He has teaching certificates from the Korea Hapkido Federation, ROK Yudo Association, and Korea Taekwondo Association, and is a life member of the Korean Martial Arts Instructors Association, the standard-setting organization for the traditional arts in Korea.

I see no mention of Aiki Jujitsu or TSD or Karate Do. And since when is a 6th Dan in Hapkido considered Grandmaster status? And speaking of Hapkido, I didn't see his name on the afore mentioned list at all from Korea yet he claims to be a member and Instructor of KHF?

Could anyone clafify these perceived discrepancies? I'm not insinuating anything, I just looking for clarification.

Thank you

[Kodanjaclay]

Kwanjangnim is a term which can be applied to many things. Loosely translated we take it to be master. I do not know much about Mr. Connolly other than I was there when Lee, Sauk Kyu presented a stone plaque from ROKYA sanctioning his kwan Chong Tong Yudo. He, at least, bears some significance and authenticity. I hope that he has been misled as well, but only time will tell. He is not on the list that the KHF published, so he may need to have some words with certain individuals as well.

Some of these orgnaizations are mere paper factories. Nothing more. Expensive toilet paper. I know he has a KHF, but it is probably invalid for the above reasons. He has a KTA, and we all know by now KTA DOES NOT ISSUE RANK. Hasn't done so since like '79. I have done both TKD and TSD, and I am here to tell you mastering both is a royal pain. They are based on different concepts. Related, but different. As I know very little about Japanese arts, I cannot comment on the rest. I can say that Yudo i the same thing as Judo. Don't let anyone tell you differently.

[DAC..florida]

Mr. Clay, thank you for your reply. And I'm sorry that this is happening to you and others. What got me curious about Mr. Connolly and a possible connection was that he seemed to speak as a man of authority within the upper echelon of the KHF. At least to the extent that I have seen, which basically amounted to him actually warning someone against claiming Hapkido rank specifically because they were not a member of the KHF.

When I saw several discrepancies in his bio of just a few monts ago to the one he has today coupled with his name being absent entirely on the Korean list, well I simply began to wonder about his role in this situation. Victim or other?

Again, I'm very sorry for what is happening to you. I had a TKD instructor lie to me many years ago in my youth about my rank. It is embarrasing and disheartening. However, as Mr. Sims as stated, this is the time for Hapkido practitioners and instructors to rally and unify to route out those who would disrespect us and make a mockery of that which we cherish.

[glad2bhere]

Dear DAC:

To my way of thinking what makes this so difficult is the constant use of image and interpretation. As I read over some of the older posts from even a few months back I begin to almost hear the ex-president foundering around with statements like "that depends on what your definition of the the word 'is' is." Start off reading some of those old posts and assertions come up like the following.

"It depends on what you mean by "grandmaster". "

"It depends on what you mean by "kwan". .....by "style"..... by
"representative".......by "director".

Then you can start to stir in things like mutual recognition. I give you an 8th dan and you are an officer in my organization. Then you give me an 8th dan in your organization and I am an officer in your organization. And then you begin to network like this among disparate groups while occasionally inflating the number of people you have brought under your growing umbrella.

Then you stir in things like inflated numbers or members and rank, exaggerated references and even purchased "franchises."

When people begin to question these practices allow various subordinates to take the heat for you without correcting them and when worse comes to worse there are always the dirty tricks like making false allegations that get people fired from their day jobs, send threatening letters and e-mails, foster campaigns of character assasination under various aliases.

For a few years now I have advocated for people who have found satisfaction in the KMA to be more involved in the management of their particular arts and their organizations. I have spoken for dialogue, involvement and accountability both TO leadership as well as ABOUT leadership. Frequently the response has been veiled (and sometimes not so veiled) suggestions that I sit-down, be quiet and not take all of this MA stuff so seriously. I submitt that at one time I had 80 private students EVERY ONE of which had experiences such as we are discussing now owing to the behaviors of various instructors and teachers. I can also report that this experience with this particular "GM" is not the first time this has happened and that last time it was his policies regarding the TKD community that got him into hot water. At some level, some time in the future, we, the members of the Hapkido and KMA community will have to own that indifference or apathy on our part contributed to and supported this guy as he conducted his affairs. I will even go so far as to say that people, early on, had doubts but were fearful of rocking the boat for fear of being revealed for having used an easier method for getting status, regard and recognition to which they might not otherwise be entitled. As was said once in a movie, the Dark Side of the The Force is not stronger rather "quicker, easier.... more seductive." Who among us wants to admit publicly that we were seduced in this fashion, ne?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

What's really sad......, No actually make that really dumbfounding, is that these people were accepted by the general martial arts community. I can understand that the general public would'nt have a clue as to the pitfalls within the arts, but for these guys to put all their BS in print on the internet no less and nobody until now has taken them to task is beyond comprehension. I'm not trying to downplay any actual training and skill level that they have, just how they have managed to make themselves look so much more important than they actually are or even capable of becoming. How in the world did they manage such a feat? On the flip side of that is the fact that there will be / are many trusting Martial Artists who, for the information available to date, looks like they got the shaft with bogus certifications. This is really a big black eye IMO for the Martial Arts Community as a Whole. If so-called legit practicioners can deceive so blatantly, what does that say to the general public about all of us?

On behalf of all concerned Martial Artists. I wish to offer a public apology to all the practicioners that have been compromised and to the public at large, for at the very least, an unethical portrayal of the martial arts in general.:asian:

[Kodanjaclay]

I have to second that. Some of us who were deceived have been in for 2 + decades.

On the other hand, as a teacher of self defense, I now understand how women get sucked into abusive relationships and the mechanics involved. Those men are cons too... these people are charming and highly intelligent. Their undoing is that they end up telling so many lies that eventually they unravel.

Masters Al Cole and Glenn Usuegi tried to warn me about this guy in the beginning. But the way in which I was approached by Master Cole made me weary and untrusting of him. Unfortunately, I now understand why he did it the way he did. Brothers, we must united to prevent this. But first we must find everyone hurt by this man, and unify them, to wipe him off the proverbial mat.

[Disco]

Dear KHF & Mr. Richard Hackworth
Contents
Dear KHF & Mr. Richard Hackworth,

I would not have written on this subject much more, but having posted my letters on one of the most reliable martial arts web sites in the world, http://www.mooto.com. I’ve received many opinions regarding my letters through my e-mail. I am, as such, reluctantly writing this letter one more time.

When I read the responses from other Hapkido members, I was surprised and could not believe some of the stories I was told. So, having read these letters several times, I have decided to point out some issues for the deliberation of the KHF & Mr. Richard Hackworth .

Please, if you represent our best interest, do not ignore my questions, as they are important for KHF & members of Hapkido & Taekwondo all over the world, including yours truly.

Questions the Korea Hapkido Federation (KHF) has to address:

1) Has the KHF officially appointed Richard Hackworth Director & representative of the regional Hapkido association in the United States. If so, when was he appointed?

2) According to Richard Hackworth’s letter dated July 21, 2003, the KHF intends to reappoint the overseas Hapkido regional representatives during the Seminar in Florida on October 25, 2003. Presently, there are only two KHF overseas regional representatives. Is this true? If so, what of the other regional representatives the KHF appointed earlier? Did they resign? If so, why?

3) The KHF should merge their two web sites as failure to do so has left many people confused and misinformed.

Question to Mr.Richard Hackworth,

1) Did you sell Hapkido videotapes through http://www.koreahapkidofederation.com
at US$550 for 10 tapes a package? If we can prove you are selling the tapes through other web sites these days, what say you? If you say yeah, did you get the permission of the KHF to do so and are you paying royalty to the KHF for using the name and logo. If you have not, and are not, you are in breach of copyright laws. I hope you are aware of this fact.

2) Do you sell certificates of Hapkido, Taekwondo & other qualified instructors, through the KMAIA (Korea Martial Arts International Association) under the names of the KHF & Kukiwon? You also sell 4th Dan Hapkido black belts at US$1500. How dare you make money on something we have devoted our life to. Wow, you must be some “businessman”.
3) I have another question. You said that the headquarters of KMAIA (your own organization) is located at Shin Heung city in Korea. I am Korean and I have not heard of Shin Heung.

4) Still, I assume you are selling martial arts certificates under the names of Korean martial arts organizations without their permission. I have my sources looking into these issues and, if you are found out, as I expect you will, I do not want to be in your shoes. You do not mess around with REAL PEOPLE. We enjoy catching crooks and we smell one in our midst, selling “certificates”.

We have evidence that you have used pictures of some former Korean officials of KHF & Kukiwon for advertisements in newsletters implying they support you. I hope you did not think you could pull one on us. They may have taken pictures with you, but it does not mean they support your kind of person. Even dead people have their picture taken with “monkeys” of the world. You used them and, that being the case, they will be advised to sue you.

I would like to emphasize that you have been cheating & using the KHF, Kukkiwon & many of the world’s Martial artists and, thereby, soiling the image of Koreans. Of course, you are aware that you must pay for your folly. We are not a forgiving people, you make fools of us.

You have been found out and you know it! Do you want to persist? My advice, as must be that of your best counselors, stop what you are doing. RESIGN from all KHF positions immediately.

If you do not acknowledge this note, I will post it on all martial arts web sites in the world and have some of my supporters in other countries make everyone aware of it. I can make your life very difficult and I promise I will. However, I will give you ONE week from today to make your decision. Please give me your answer, and I hope it is a wise one, as soon as possible. Post it on the KHF website yourself. I really don’t want to make trouble further. But, if you insist otherwise, I will have no choice.

Dear Members of Hapkido & Taekwondo, I am sorry to do all this, but, as you may know, Richard Hackworth has been cheating and using the KHF & Kukiwon for his own interests. I cannot tolerate his misdeeds any more. The KHF must denude him from any position he holds with KHF. In other words, REMOVE HIS NAME from the KHF web site of school directory IMMEDIATELY.

Sincerely yours,


HKD man

[glad2bhere]

I was kinda wondering if anyone has taken that list of titles or ranks identified by Jor Connolly and checked them item by item for veracity. Is this another case of related organizations bestowing mutual regard on each other? If I own a school and another person owns a school and we each give one another a 9th dan does that rank mean anything? Are these folks required to disclose the manner and circumstances of their receiving their rank? Not being more than a 3rd Dan I may not be aware of guidelines as followed in the rarified atmosphere of upper management. Apparently Hackworth has been uncovered for what he is. Does anyone know how far this misrepresentation goes?

BTW: I see by todays' date that it is December 7th. I have not heard any earth-shaking announcements from the KHF or Oh See Lim. Neither have I heard of any increased frequency of wrist-slitting in the KMA community. Perhaps Hackworth would like to use his next radio program to explain his way out of THIS particular turn of events. If past behaviors are any indication of future deportment I expect that he will identify some nefarious plot against his efforts to unify the Hapkido community in a world of Peace and Love. I also suspect that he will be organizing his own multi-national entity specializing in certs-for-fee options. You have to admit that if nothing else, the guy IS predictable! :rolleyes:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

Looking back on the first and second pages of this thread, Mr. H was very adamant about his announcement on busting frauds at his seminar. Who knew it would be a complete turnabout.

That letter addressed to Mr. H taken from the mooto site was dated July-03. Haven't seen or heard any followup info as yet. If any can find additional updates, would appriciate the postings.

I personally don't give a rats a## what these guys want to anoint themselves with. My heartburn stems from the fact that they openly in print called everybody not associated with them a fraud (Mr. H's letter of welcome on the KHF web site). Now it turns out that they are being accused of the very thing they accused other's of. I can only imagine the number of people who have been compromised by the alleged fraud perpertrated by Mr. H. This must have been ongoing for some time. I will take a guess that the KHF in Korea will most likely just turn a blind eye and wait till this just dies down and falls from people's views. Unless those that have been duped rally together and at the very least attempt to recover and bring justice to the forefront, nothing will happen to prevent this from happening again. This is not like some small time school instructor that closes his door and slips away. The money involved here, on a National basis, must be big time. If a 4th Dan test fee was $1500 (mooto letter), well you can conceive the math with 1st thru 4th nationwide. That's just for Hapkido. TaeKwonDo comes on to the playing field also. If all of this finger pointing is true, it would be a bigger crime to let him get away with it. If all of this is not true, Mr. H has been very silent. One would think that an attempt would be made to correct misinformation on his part.

[Kodanjaclay]

I am not sure how much it was per the mooto letter. My fourth dan he wanted 1 grand to fix, and he charged Fabian 600 bucks. Fabian was already KHF certified, but he convinced Fabian that he old Master Cha ripped him off and made him re-pay for 1-3 as well. I brought him to a friends school in ashland Va, where he and a couple mebers of his entourage proceed to embarrass him by telling my friend his rank was no good... in his school, and in front of a couple of his students. Can you imagine how bad I felt? The rank wasn't bad... it was just a cert from our old grandmaster, bearing his name, and the name of his organization... we were both told, mostly because neither of us reads Korean presumably, that one of the characters meant honorary.

I have stated several times that I am unsure what my KMA history will hold. All I can say is that I am tired of the games, and the cons. I don't know that I want to be a part of it, and I nor anyone else, should every be made to feel that way. My trust and loyalty were abused, and I feel as though my psyche was raped. This guy needs to go away, but since he is not returning phone cals, my guess is that he is trying to lay low until the fervor stops... but I have news. It will never stop... Hackworthless, I hope one fo your little flunkies sees this and tells you about it. I am very loyal, true... but also very ethical, and so long as there is air in my lungs, I will be a thorn in your side, and in the side of those like you. I have a great suggestion for you: RETIRE.

[Disco]

List of Hackworth's Victims
Writer : Tom Schneider (ts2004@yahoo.com)


If any of the following people think they are 4th Dans or higher under the KHF, then they have been conned by Hackworth.

I'm sure that most of these people are honest, hard-working individuals who worked hard for what they believed was legitimate rank and whose only mistake was putting trust in an individual who turned out to be a con man.

Here is the list of just the Americans listed as official KHF instructors on Hackworth's website. None of these people are listed on the official list of KHF Non-Korean Masters listed on the real KHF website.

Ed Annibale
Steve M. Arce
Ken Baker
Walter Bond
Steve Bowman
Frank Clay
Joseph Connolly
Dennis Corn
Dr. Daryl R. Covington
Robert Cox
Jim Cray
Garrett DeWitt
Mike Frazier
Gregory Glover
Craig Hamm
Kevin Huston
Larry Ingles
Dae Y. Kim
Hoon Lee
Joseph Lumpkin
Tommy Lunsford
Robert Marlatt
Shane Miller
Ryoichi Miyahara
Danny Morgan
Charles M. Nestor
Bette Nielson
Darren Norris
Fred Parks
Les Pearson
Dan Piller
Gary Pointer
Terryl Richardson
James Risius
Stuart Rosenberg
Ed Samane
Fred Soto, Ph.D.
Allen Spindel
T.S. Son
Ronald R. Suggs
Barbara Sullivan
Howard Sun
Chuck VanSickle
Shannon Vazquez
Kenneth Winthrop
K.W. Woo

Just at 4th Dan fee's alone that's $19,000. Sounds like a big case of Grand Larceny and getting bigger all the time.

[arnisador]

This might be more appropriate for the Horror Stories forum.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[glad2bhere]

Dear Disco:

Just to make sure I understand what you posted....

The list of folks, were they all acquiring their 4th Dan from Hackworth at his going fee, would produce the $19,000US figure you mention, right?

However the $19,000US figure does not take into account those fees charged in the case of folks who may have secured additional dan ranks (5th, 6th, 7th.) or the certs for validating the ranks of students, other BB at a particular location in addition to the school owner or schools and classes related to the main school presided over by the owner.

If I read your post correctly you were suggesting that the $19,000US would be simply the tip of the iceberg. If this is true I think it is important for people to appreciate just how large the iceberg might be. Hackworth made quite an issue about how many kwans, styles, schools, etc. were related to or members of his growing network. At one time Hackworth was associated with a variety of kwans in the US and Korea through the KMAIA, with KIHAP with Ed Annibel, a Yudo Association with Joe Connolly and smaller groups such as the one associated with Rev Covington ("Karate for Christ"). Apparently all of these groups and associations enjoyed various validations from Hackworth and his machine.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

Bruce, I was using the fee amount that Mr. Clay had mentioned in his post as a generalization. On the mooto site the fee was quoted at $1500. Just using the 4th as the tip of the iceberg so to speak, for that is the only fee that has been quoted. I would imagine that there are lots of folks from 1st thru 3rd not only in Hapkido but the other organizations and disciplines (TKD and Karate?) that are/could be affected. Just at the 4th Hapkido level, is big time grand larceny numbers. This could inflate to mini Enron numbers. As far as Mr. Connelly goes, aside from the fact that he likes to inflate his bio, he also may be on the outside looking in. I would venture that he was most likely conned also. His name was on that list of victims. That would most likely takeaway many of the rankings he lists. In general, a thief dosen't like to share, so I doubt Mr. H was/is spreading the wealth.

From minor research, this effort against Hackworth has been ongoing for some time and has finnally produced sufficient evidence for people to take off the gloves and call it like it is. There's just way to many people claiming foul and voicing an outcry to think that this is just a flame war. I have no personal stake in this, aside from the fact that as a practicioner of the arts, particularly those arts in question, I want to see some sort of Justice and Honor returned to what is a very big part of my life. A man like this casts his shadow on all of us in the arts and makes us all look bad in the eyes of the general public. This is the time for all of us to step forward and show that we can and MUST police our own. If this incident......... no travesty, goes unchallenged and is left to just fade away into obscurity, then we as a community are just as guilty of perpertrating a fraud as he is. The people that are directly affected must, repeat must, not let this man slide, if there is a legal way to confront him. As for my position in this, I will endeavor to keep people informed and not let this slip into the history files and become forgotten, until there is resolution.

[whalen]

[Re.]List of Hackworth's Victims
Writer : Harold L. Whalen__(whalen@mudoacademy.com)


My sincere apologies to those who were duped by Hackworth. I can assure you that the KHF is addressing this situation.

Unfortunately, some of the people on the list promoted by Hackworth are of questionable Hapkido backgrounds. I believe that in some cases, money was first, ability was second. However, those of legitimate Hapkido backgrounds will be assisted.

If you have any questions, or if I can be of help, feel free to contact me directly.

Sincerely,

Harold L. Whalen
7th Dan, KHF

[glad2bhere]

Dear Hal:

Sounds like a nice "middle-of-the-road" kind of policy.

BTW: Have YOU heard any earth-shaking announcements about who is to be the Head rep for the KHF? From the list it would seem that you would have the rank, or at least the ear closest to what may be happening across the pond in the the Old Country.

BTW #2: As I sit by and watch things unfold, the irony is not lost on me that rather than being one who might have been expected to "slit their wrists" I can enjoy a comfortable perspective from which to watch Hackworth hoisted on his own petard. Couldn't have happened to a nicer person. :shrug:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

Is or has the KHF formally denounced Mr. Hackworth and removed him from their rolls? For those with "legit" Hapkido backgrounds, would you have any idea of what the KHF is willing to do on their behalf? Forgive my straight forward questioning, but I am curious as to the extent the home office (Korea) will go to in order to attempt a correction and unvilify their reputation. Even though I am not personally affected, on behalf of those that are, I applaud you for stepping forward and offering your assistance and your personal apology. You are sir, a person of honor and integrity.

Respectfully
Mike Dunn / disco

[whalen]

Bruce: stay tuned to my radio show for all the answers.

But seriously, I am in contact with Korea and the KHF. It is somewhat like dealing with City Hall (or any government agency). I have been in contact with several Grandmasters of the KHF including GM Bae. As of now, there is no earthshattering news to share. I will keep everyone informed of any developments. Let's keep in mind that this problem didn't develop overnight, and so it won't be solved overnight either. And as much as this man has personally attacked me, he is innocent until proven guilty.

Hal

[Disco]

Innocent until proven guilty?................. We are all under the assumption that proof of wrong doing has been established. Are there in fact persons that have this proof or is this just a personal vendetta by a few people? With the amount of people making accusations on several sites, including the KHF site, one has to believe that these people have some tangible proof to back up their statements.

[glad2bhere]

My sense is that at some level we all have a pretty good idea of whats going to happen here. We have all seen it before and it stinks but its the way these things usually go.

Every time some entrepeneur exceeds himself people are dutifully horrified and appalled. We wonder how could such things happen and why doesn't somebody DO something. Here are a couple of answers.

1.) There are a lot more people who want the quick and easy way to positions of influence than those who want to earn their way. Hackworths' system seemed to be a viable venue for getting the sort of position of authority, status and prestige that people were hungry for. In order for this to change people would need to give up their hunger for power and status.

2.) There are a lot of people who want to avoid accountability. How many people if they could pay a bit more and NOT take a test or have their skills publicly assessed wouldn't do it? We KNOW if our skills are good or not. What kind of person who has viable skills in one art knowingly accepts standing in another art with little or no experience in that second art? If you have any doubts about how desperate people can be to avoid accountability trying raising the issue of centralized licensure or governmental oversight and see how fast people pull back!

3.) Money WILL talk so Bulls*** WILL walk. There are big bucks in the Martial Theatre industry. Even a little seminar of 20 people @ $60US a head will bring in $1200US for an afternoons' work. Imagine a weekend of 100 people @ $100US for both days! And I'm not counting the last minute "testing" which kicks in "test fees", or books and tapes, memberships and so forth. Easy money and don't pretend that you honestly think that people in positions of power don't do the math before they cut somebody like Hackworth loose. Just how do you think he got into the position of authority that he found himself? It wasn't his charming personality!

No, Friends, it is going to happen again, farther down the road. Not because we like getting burned, or bamboozled, but because in the minds of a great many people there is a little "risk management" program running even as I write this. The program decides the probability of this pain visiting our own house, and when we find that likelihood acceptably small we turn our backs and go about our business, After all, as painful as this is, its pain in someone elses backyard, right?

......at least for the time being.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

Reviewing some of the other sites where this is also an ongoing issue, KHF, Budoseek, Bullshido and 1 or 2 other's that escape me at the moment. The consensus of opinion is to let this simmer down, pull back and let it unfold? Nice way of saying forget about it. The old saying, "Out of sight - Out of mind", comes to mind. At least 2 of those sites have some sort of vested interest with the party being accused. Can understand why they would want it to just go away. The other's don't and what I'm seeing from them is we just don't care.....total apathy. That seems to be the prevalent attitude throughout society. Another old saying comes to mind in dealing with a situation like this - "Fool me once, shame on you / Fool me twice, shame on me"....... For the people that have a personal involvement in this, stay the course. Don't let something like this happen to other's and surely not by the same person.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Disco:

Maybe I can provide an alternate way of considering this. In one very telling way Hackworth HAS done us a service.

For many years now I have been advocating for these myriad organizations to actually perform the sorts of services that organizations are meant to perform. People join organizations for the increased frequency with which organization bring like-minded people together. People join organizations for the hierarchical way in whcih those organizations structure themselves and their membership regarding skills or services. People join organizations to improve their standings or skill sets. People join organizations to broaden their experiences or awareness. I could go on, but I think you get the point. The common point of reference for all of these things is that people have an expectation that if someone sets themselves up as an organization they are actually going to deliver on these expectations. What Hackworth seems to have given us is a Class-A bungle that these organizations now have to deal with. My question is, "will they?"

Some years back I was involved in an ugly little mess where I was working and I was told that I could not trust the management there to do the right thing by me. All I had to go on was the grousing of some disaffected co-workers. As an (expensive) experiment I eschewed Union representation and simply went on faith----- and got my clock cleaned. The only redeeming blessing I could see out of that mess was that I now have concrete experience that tells me never to trust these management people as far as I can throw them. I think the same holds true for the KHF. Why do you think I am following this so carefully----- and I am not even a member? For years I have heard various organizations advertise and represent themselves as the very embodiment of Korean martial arts and martial tradition. So far the World Kido and Korea Kido have split and there is little to be heard from either of them. Sin Mu Hapkido is still around and selling rank to anyone who will expand their cachement area. Now the KHF is up to ITS armpits in poop. And everytime someone asks one of these organizations about their shortcomings there is always some heavy rationalization to explain away why what people are seeing is not really what is happening. Well, we all know whats going on right now. We have the person who designed this mess and we have the folks who were defrauded and we have the organization(s) in whose name(s) this was done. I am waiting to see what it is that the KHF is going to do to make things right. If they fail you can best believe that I know one 3rd Dan in Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido who won't let it pass by quietly.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Bob D.]

Is it typical for dan tests to cost $1500 in Hapkido?

[Disco]

I guess if there's a monoply on organization availability. If you don't join them (the people that charge $1000-1500), then by their words on their site, your a fraud. In legalize, I think that could be catagorized as strong arming.

[glad2bhere]

Actually I think one can take it a step farther.

Has anyone actually considered what it costs to get a test?

Has anyone ever noticed that the fees always seem to be higher in the US and a lot less in Korea?

And exactly how much of that expensive test is a foregone conclusion simply because the testor has the cert in his hot little bag and the testee has a check in HIS hot little hand?


I don't know this for a fact but I have a vague suspicion that what is being bought is not just the cert but an unstated agreement between people that for the person doing the certifying not to scrutinize to closely the person being certified agrees to pay a bit more. A lot less scrutiny means a LOT more money.

"Of course, thats just my opinion. I COULD BE wrong."

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[fringe_dweller]

Originally posted by Bob D.
Is it typical for dan tests to cost $1500 in Hapkido?

Not where I'm from.... Damn that's a lot of money to be spent on rank.

Grant

[Disco]

Does have to make you wonder. I've had my suspicions for a long time. Not that I'm any Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee, but I've seen way to many that.........just suck......no other way to put it. Well I guess you can only bail out the boat so much until the hole gets to big to stay up with the water coming in.%think%

[Disco]

It's been just about a week, since there was any information on the situation with the KHF and Mr. you know who. What if anything is going on? I would have thought that by now, with all that has been presented, that the KHF would have said something definitive about their position and the disposition of the party in question. Are the people who were victimized going to seek criminal action? Would hate to see this just fade away into the sunset like a bad Italian Western :rolleyes:

[whalen]

About the recent incidents after listing the non-Korean masters
Because of the recent listing of the KHF non-Korean masters on the KHF web site, many masters are disturbed and confused. As the director in charge of this matter, I am sincerely sorry to many innocent and enthusiastic Hakido In(people).

As we know, President Oh and all the masters of the KHF are working very hard to keep austere Dan(Black Belt) Rank to preserve Hapkido as an orthodox martial art.

Partly due to this policy, some masters who run Dojangs(schools) at the front sometimes meet financial difficulties, not only the difficulties of teaching lots of Sulki(techniques) to apply Dan rank. However, it can not be excuses to so-called "selling Dan".

We admit many masters' difficulties to follow the KHF policy at the front line. That is why the KHF has begun to improve and reform lots of things to function more systematically and organizationally to help masters not only in Korea but also overseas in the world.

Till recent days, the overseas networks of Hapkido normally have been working on as individual masters' bases or some specific Kwans'(schools) bases without reporting to the KHF, whereas the KHF has been concerned mainly in Korean domesticity.

And some dishonest people and masters have exploited this former attitude of the KHF, and have caused today's mischievous incidents consequently.

The KHF will do proper actions against masters and people who broke the Hapkido and martial arts ethics after investigation.

And also the KHF promises to do the best to relieve the innocent Hapkido In(people) according to our regulations.

Thank you.


Sung-Book Bae
Director, the KHF
22_______

[whalen]

personal explanation about the KHF event in October, Florida
Writer : Sung-Book Bae__(yesb279@hanmail.net)
I am Sung-Book Bae. Before beginning to explain the recent incident and the KHF event in October, I have to express both of my thankfulness and regretfulness to Hapkido people who were there.

Before the event in October, I had made it clear to Master Hackworth that the KHF official event was only the Dan test exam, not the Hapkido seminar. And I requested Master Richard Hackorth many times to give me the information and the names of participants before the event.

My intention was to prepare and give each participant a kind of "Participating Certificate" with a letter of gratitude for coming, no matter it is worthy or not to them. Even till now I don't know who and what they are. On December 12, I got the list of participants by e-mail from Master Hackworth. Only the names.

There might be some regrets and mis-understandings among participants who thought or expected a kind of seminar. However, that event was only for the Dan test. And consequently I was not given the opportunity, there I hoped to meet masters from other organizations and to discuss with them about their joining or cooperation with the KHF.

Some kinds of mis-understanding and possible cultural differences between American way and Korean way in doing business and expression.

Up until now, from overseas, All Dan applications are sent by certified individual masters for their students. So, for that job I planned to set up branch offices and representatives in countries where Hapkido is practiced by many people. I searched appropriate KHF masters who have abilities of organizing people and have some social influences where they live.

During that, Master Hackworth applied for that representative-ship and suggested to have a seminar and Dan test for people who live in America. He has been working as a legitimate master of the KHF for a decade. So I accepted his proposal and said that if he showed his ability in that event he could be appointed as a representative as he wanted.

Till that time, the KHF was not much interested in overseas events and had poor information about Hapkido in America, except knowing some senior masters living there. Anyway, even though there were some complaints from some masters, the KHF decided to have a event in America, showing the KHF willingness to go abroad.

I think although the event was not quite successful, it was an inevitable experience one organization has to face to land a place where some masters had been working individually in their own names(for ex. issuing their own certificates, memberships, and etc.) or without legitimate reporting systems to their headquarters.

I know many Hapkido people are victimized by dishonest masters. So, I'll do my best to relieve people who have practiced Hapkido and want to have relationship with the KHF. I'll prepare some supplementary systems to help them.

Though my personal explanation could sound like a mere excuse, I just hope to show what happened in that event and backgrounds of recent incidents.

Sung-Book Bae

[Disco]

The "Real" KHF site has an interesting post. An officer of the KHF Korea (Mr. Bae?) posted a message referencing that the KHF is/was in the process of determining a candidate for the position of U.S. rep to the KHF. To me this means that Mr. H was never, even though he claimed to be, an official rep for the KHF. This has been going on for many years, which everybody now knows. This brings another question to the surface. Surely for the number of years that this has been ongoing, the KHF wants people to believe that they never knew anything about Mr. H's dealings? I find that very hard to believe. Just too many people have had certificates issued and from my understanding, in 1999 this issue was previously brought to light but nothing seemed to have been corrected. Me thinks this may run somewhat deeper than just Mr. H.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Disco:

I think you have hit upon the bain of this KHF mess in particular and the commercial approach to KMA generally. There is a great deal of money to be made selling rank, selling certification, selling seminars, etc. Some people actually do it rather well and when things roll along--- money this way, paper that way---- nobody looks too closely. However, sometimes there are glitches in the system and when that happens everyone is dutifully "horrified" to find out that there were such behaviors going along in the first place. ;)

I hope you don't think for one minute that the folks in Korea didn't know that all of this was going on, that our "star GM" didn't understand what he was doing, or that the people who purchased their standing didn't know what THEY were doing. Everyone from OH See Lim on down would have been the first to tell you that everything was on the up-&-up and that the suspicions of outside observers were unfounded. The ranks were a genuine measure of peoples' technical skills. The standings and organizations as represented were recognized by everyone cited. The organizations were of such repute and influence in the KMA community. It takes more than a website, a printed curriculum and a fee scale to make an organization and EVERYBODY knew that. There was simply a general agreement that noone would look at the entire situation TOO closely.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

I see where the "STAR" of the show has made an appearance over at the KHF site. His role now has him playing an accuser. He came on stage and just blasted Mr. Bae and other's. So by his words, everybody in Korea does it, soooooooo..........!:idunno:

I'm affraid that because their all turning on each other:argue: the actual point in question will most likely pushed aside:-offtopic and in the end the winner of the toilet fest will just turn to all and go:moon: Just seems how these things go. The people that got screwed will probably be given something by the KHF to make them go away. Ain't nothing but a piece of paper anyway.:rolleyes: and everybody will go their merry way and all will be forgotten in 6 months, until it erupts again in a couple of years. I thought this happened already in 1999?:confused:

Just having too much fun with all the smilies.:rofl:

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Maybe this is a little off topic, but there has been talk for years about the KHF and how they distibute "power and rank". A quick search, really quick, turned up no less than 3 people in the last 10 years that have claimed to be the US rep for the KHF. James Garrison, Hal Whalen, Richard Hackworth - that was a quick search.

Now, some of the KHF folks calim they were unaware of all that was happening, and thought they were attending a conference on Hapkido in Florida...sorry, that doesn't fly. The thing was advertised for almost a year, and it was clear what was being sold - a chance to train with top men in the KHF. Even if it were a conference, why did the KHF brass attend only an hour or so total for the whole event?? Sorry, I don't care whose protocol is in question, but if you want to call a conference then at least attend it...

In addition, how many native english speakers are there at the KHF? I know at least one, and Mr. Bae's English seems pretty good to me - so know one in Korea knew?? How about all the other guys that have used the KHF name over the years? Did they miss them too?

We have even been traeted to posts that assert that the Koreans really don't care about America. Right, who cares, we only have 5 or 10 people here doing Hapkido. Uh-Huh...

I can tell you from my own experience that the KHF really cares a lot about the rest of the world, and whenever they are given the chance they jump to send people to foreign countries and leave dan grades behind - I've seen it in the United Kingdom first hand.

I am not saying all these are bad people, if you sell a phoney grade, that's bad, but maybe this organization has really lived its useful life. The rumors of grade selling will get worse, the numbers involved will increase in my opinion. Maybe it just got so far out of hand with the KHF that it is time for that organization to call it quits. Take the good men and start again fresh. The air needs to be cleared.

Disco believes that the mess will die down in 6 months - for many I would agree, for some of us that have seem hapkido drawn into a mire of junk like this, the time has come to start cleaning house.

Kevin

[whalen]

Kevin, point of clarification: James Garrison was the representative of the Korean Hapkido Federation (often confused with the Korea Hapkido Federation, but a different organization).

There may have been confusion on my position. I have said that I am the US Representative of the KHF Chun Do Kwan. My instructor, GM Yu, Chun-He is the founder. I am also one of only 3 non-Koreans in America that are considered 7th Dans by the KHF.

Hal

[iron_ox]

Master Whalen,

You are correct, thanks for that. I went back and checked the source, and it had a typo - Garrison's organization is different one indeed!!

Please don't take offense at my comments about the KHF, I know that you have an excellent reputation as a technician. I am just tired of all the stalling and boo-hooing that everyone is doing. If the accusations are true, action must be taken now. If not, then lets get the air cleaned and move on - we are all be damaged by this.

I will say this Master Whalen, you were very ahead of the curve when in the October 1998 issue of TKD Times, your letter "Hapkido for Sale" made an interesting reference to "...a Disneyworld Hapkido vacation..." very prophetic to say the least all things considered.

Thanks,

Kevin

[whalen]

And my life has never been the same since that article.

Hal

[Disco]

Although I have not been privy to your referenced 1998 article in TKD Times, I would assume that it addressed the problem (indirectly) that has transpired. As I stated in a prior post, someone referenced a 1999 time frame that this very same problem was brought forth. Apparently, the KHF sat on their hands then and from reading all the postings not only here, but other sites, it looks the same. To quote Yogi Berra,"It looks like deja vu all over again".

Please forgive me if the following comes off the wrong way, but there is no soothing way to say it. Many have you as the leading candidate for the position of U.S. rep and you are more than qualified. From my viewpoint, why would you even want the position? It looks as if nobody paid any real attention in 98. They apparently did a Ray Charles in 99 and now it looks like a Bill Clinton is coming up (what the meaning of is, is). Perhaps it's time for you and other senior American members of the KHF to start a home ruled organization. I'd be willing to bet that it would be a major stepping stone in bringing Hapkido(ists) together in this country.

Respectfully :asian:

[whalen]

Loyalty is the first thing I learned from my master. I only have one father. Just because I do not always agree with him, his politics, or his decisions, does not mean I go out an get myself another father.

Patience is the second thing (and I'm still learning this one.).

But thank you for the consideration.

Hal

[fringe_dweller]

Originally posted by whalen
Loyalty is the first thing I learned from my master. I only have one father. Just because I do not always agree with him, his politics, or his decisions, does not mean I go out an get myself another father.

Hal

And there is an attitude we could all learn from....

Grant

[Disco]

quote: Originally posted by whalen
Loyalty is the first thing I learned from my master. I only have one father. Just because I do not always agree with him, his politics, or his decisions, does not mean I go out an get myself another father.

This is true, but if the father is not to be trusted and is or has done things unexceptable, then a prudent person distances himself from this person. Just using your annology, sons remove themselves from their fathers everyday, to safeguard their furture.

Loyality is a commendable attribute in a person. Misguided loyality however is subject to questioning. Understand your position in a way. You have been with them for many years and you personally have not been a part of all that has been going on. But based upon available information from the net, this problem has been ongoing for years and was reported to have been addressed in 1999. Apparently nothing was corrected. It now has again surfaced for all to view again and the powers that be seem to be talking around it. Can't help but to be somewhat perplexed. If in fact the allegations are true and proof is available (which seems to be the case from those that have been the accusers), by not coming forward with a position on the matter only makes it look questionable at best. Responding that it's under investigation is an old dodge. Proof and accusers are and have been available for quite some time. Even on other sites, this is starting to fade into the sunset, just as it looks like they wanted it to. If I was a senior member and looking to safeguard my organization, I would endeavor to stimulate the officer(s) in charge to state offically the organizations position on the person in question and just exactly what's going to happen to those affected.

Respectfully :asian:

[glad2bhere]

Dear Disco:

A theme that I have heard in my life a lot is that one "cannot fix a system from the outside". The way this has been explained to me is that to some extent one must find a way to "get along" within the organization and work for change from within. I also agree with Hal that loyalty to ones' GM or organization is of prime importance. Certainly, if we don't like the way things are going we can always "vote with our feet" as the saying goes. There are a myriad of organizations to choose from. For me, however, this raises two very important points.

The first point is that if one remains with an organization will it happen that sooner or later one hits a "glass wall" beyond which the powers in authority will resist further change. This was the reason I raised the point about the $$. My sense is that most organizations will make changes guided by which option promises the greater financial reward.

The second point is that a member walks a very thin line between honoring oneself and honoring the organization. Waiting for the wheels to move slowly, trusting in the good efforts of current officers, working slowly to improve quality of services can try the patience of Job. And there is no guarentee that such things will come out well either in one organization or another. Personally I would like to see Hal take a more pro-active part in announcing remedial efforts for the current misused and abused KHF membership, but then there might already be things at work that have not been finalized for release.

Its coming up to about a month since the "Great December 6th Announcement" that was to have wow-ed the MA world. I can see giving it a bit more time to see what might happen in the next few weeks. I don't see this dying down to nothing in that time. There is a LOT of unfinished business to be addressed before all of this is laid to rest. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

I do think that loyalty has its place, particularly in the study of any martial art. But when the orgainzation or the head of the orgainzation violates a trust - or worse, allows the orgainzation to be ridiculed, something has to change. My first instructor was "ethically challenged" and when he was gone, the orgainzation decided to fold and start fresh rather than try to outlive the bad image the instructor cast.

Another question comes to mind - according to recent press, the KHF has accepted a Yudo orgainzation into its ranks as a Hapkido Kwan - what is this about? Maybe as Bruce suggests, money is playing a bigger part in this than we can imagine.

I hope that the KHF does not believe that this will just all blow over - we in the Hapkido community have all gotten a good kick in the teeth over this one - its time to get a decision that can put some of this really to rest.

Finally, anyone read the January TKD Times? Wonder how they feel about the new "pair" of column writers?? Heard future columns have already been cancelled!! But just to be sure, drop them a line to tell them how you feel reading stuff from an accused fraud.

Kevin Sogor

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

".......Another question comes to mind - according to recent press, the KHF has accepted a Yudo orgainzation into its ranks as a Hapkido Kwan - what is this about? Maybe as Bruce suggests, money is playing a bigger part in this than we can imagine. ....."

You just hit the nail right on the head! I had not heard about this but if it is true that is EXACTLY what I am talking about!! Some time back I remember raising cane about GM Ji bestowing a standing on a Judo player from out close to the East Coast. I'm not saying that person was not talented, or gifted or competent. What I AM saying is that GM Ji teaches Sin Mu Hapkido. What happens to the integrity of the art if one takes in people and gives them standing in the hopes that they will, with time, absorb and promote a particular style of Hapkido? To my mind what this is about is guarenteeing residule fees to help support GM in a style to which he would like to become accustomed in his old age.

I have some pretty strong issues about this as you can tell, but its NOT about making money. People have a right to make a living just about anyway they choose. What I DO have a problem with is when the integrity of the KMA suffers. I have already fought with people who told me for some time that if it hadn't been for Japanese arts there would BE no Korean traditions! I have long since shut them up with sound facts, resources and citations. But it doesn't help me when Korean nationals themselves make outlandish claims, play fast and loose with curriculums, or abuse historical traditons so to improve the bottomline.

I am waiting for just ONE more Korean national to tell me that Westerners will never fully appreciate Korean culture, or fully understand Korean martial tradition. Seems to me, from what all I have seen in the last year that all one needs to understand the "nuances" of Korean martial traditions these days is an appreciation for money and a talent for schlock marketing. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[rana_hapkido_panama2002]

Hi all and be blessed and all of you have a great 2004

I am Ramon Navarro, HapKiDo Sabum now for almost 27 years from the country of Panama and assistant to Grand Master Park, Song IL 9th Dan; we have Song Moo HapKiDo International (for English speaking people) and Song Moo HapKiDo Internacional (for Spanish speaking people).

I am the person in charge of the International Kwans that are for now USA and Colombia with working plans for other countries.

I believe that Loyalty is important because like the saying of the Christians and Catholics say : ' The family that prays together stays together ' and by other expressions are like this one ' Strength comes from unity '.

If this a fact then we must stay firm on our principles and if must choose to change this principles it must be done in the way that it will be best for our conscious mind and future in life - not to make enemies if possible !

Also we must act in accordance to our believes and if this means go public then it must be done.

Now a days everyone wants money and some are willing to go beyond the realm of the right way to do this. Unethically ! This should not be the way but the truth is that it is happening.

I believe that HapKiDo to be done correctly, it must not be mixed and I know that many other people do not think like I do and I respect that. Thought it is much important that a organization that is well known as in this theme the KHF that if there are any errors that are being made that there must be corrections done as soon as possible for the sake of the people that are part of that organization and the well being of its members.

I do not know for real but I think that the best way to reorganize an organization is by getting rid of all the people that have to do with the case of this one specific group that is very big and very well known for it not to lose its strength as such. The bad thing is that the people that have the head should not be in the art but the truth is that it must be the way that it is : to have a well respected person from its origin to guide and rule it !

I do know is that there are a lot of people that need to be backed up and a hole lot more that do want to get involved but do not do so because of the actions that some ones do in many of the main organizations and that they instead of helping the art speaking well of the other organizations, degrade them wish do not do good for the art in general.

The truth is that there is something that must be done in the inner line of the Korea HapKiDo Federation so it can be seen that the future of the other people that would like to join do it with security of the growth of their group.

I am not going to say to much more, Thanks for the group and have a good training year coming up, 2004.

HAP:asian:

[Disco]

Bruce, have to agree with your monetary outlook. Just seems to be the evolution for people in positions of authority or posing as such. Also, as Mr. Sogor pointed out, they accepted a Yudo organization as a kwan. :rolleyes: I have heard this prior to his posting, but could not bring myself to believe it was true. They would have to be past the point of arrogance, to not care what people would think of actions like this. What kind of validation, other than money, could they come up with for something like that? In all fairness to the senior members, who seem to hold the true tenents of the Martial Arts to heart, I think that more investigation will just uncover what most fear. A cesspool of corruption and fraud. I would like to believe that it is only localized to where the stink is coming from now, but only the very gullible could entertain that position.

As for the position that you "can't change things from the outside". Common sense dictates that a single person who gets access to a position on the inside, can't change it either. More over they just acquiesce and become part of the problem. In a situation like an organization like this, positioned in another country under so-called governmental acceptance, there is no way a foreigner would get an inner position (Bruce's "Glass Wall"). I know Bruce dosen't care all that much for organizations but they are here and we have to deal with them the best we can. Just using this situation for an example. The only recourse that many would have is to just leave and go off on their own. Now you have independent's, that for them to advance in rank, they now must promote themselves. Kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't. But many look down on the self promotion aspect. So now your back to organizational overview. I still adhear to the position that the time has come for the senior ranking in the U.S. to reposition their thinking.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Ramon:

I think you raise some very sound points. I am sure there are a great many of folks like myself who are waiting to see whether or not the KHF will deal with things and what that actions will produce. I am a loyal WHF member and could see becoming a KHF member IF I could be sure that values and ethics were placed higher than financial success and prestige. As it stands I am in something of a holding pattern. In a way its a bit like touring the New England area of the US and seeing the fine old covered bridges which were built many decades ago. They are certainly attractive and romantic from a distance, but up close there can often be warning signs that age and use have weakened them to traffic. Pretty to look at, but losing their practical use. We need people who can come to the front and show us that the organizations are all that they say they are. FWIW.

BTW: Sometime it would be really nice to get a chance to meet you and finally put a face with these great posts you contribute.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[greendragon]

I have long ago come to the conclusion that money is money... For many years I held the KMA traditions and masters above ill repute. Well I finally talked to a very wise american with great knowledge of Koreans and korean culture. I started complaining about the things I have seen and didn't agree with. Bottom line is that he says he doesn't understand why americans put koreans on some big ethical and moral pedestal, he says hey they are just people like everyone else and money corrupts EVERYONE! Now I'm not making excuses, I am just saying that I like a lot of others viewed the korean masters thru rose colored glasses... well they are JUST like americans and they CAN be corrupted with money just like all the other cultures so to think they are above that or better than that is looking at everything very unrealistically. If things don't change the way you think it will look at the money trail... in the end it sways too many people and money and greed doesn't care what country or culture you are from.
Michael Tomlinson

[glad2bhere]

Dear Michael:

"......Bottom line is that he says he doesn't understand why americans put koreans on some big ethical and moral pedestal, he says hey they are just people like everyone else and money corrupts EVERYONE! ....."

You probably know what I am going to write even before I put it down here, but I will share this all the same for others who have not heard my spiel.

What you have laid out here is exactly the point I have been working to make for a few years now. It does not help that people from this side of the Pacific put personalities up on some pedestal. It does not help that some Korean personalities encourage an elite view of themselves with talk of fancy titles, or exotic lineage, or embellished tales of how they came to represent the art that they advocate. The simple fact is that we are dealing with people who instruct in an activity and just like any activity you have good and bad instructors and a host of folks in between. Since I have a teaching background in the school system here in the States I can tell you that I have met some stellar teachers. I have also met some real zeroes. I can tell you that all--- all----- of those folks I am speaking about are not above being regarded objectively for what they do and how they do it. What this means for my KMA experience is that when some personality shields himself from criticism behind a title or exotic history I am the first to pull that crap to oneside, and start asking some basic questions about what he teaches, why he teaches that and how he gets his message across.

I know that Americans get toasted pretty well by Koreans for being so "intellectual" and asking so many questions. However, I would turn the table and challenge many Korean organizations and personalities for hiding behind a mis-use of Neo-Confucianism that seems to shield such folk from accountability. Under such a model if we "underlings" are to hold to our place and pay loyalty and support to people in position of responsibility over us, it is also required, by the same model, that people in positions of responsibility act with honor, justice and benevolence to care after the needs of those under them. This does not include greening membership like a cash cow so as to feather their nest and preen their egos.

OK. I feel better now.;)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[greendragon]

<<Under such a model if we "underlings" are to hold to our place and pay loyalty and support to people in position of responsibility over us, it is also required, by the same model, that people in positions of responsibility act with honor, justice and benevolence to care after the needs of those under them. >>


Very well said...
Michael Tomlinson

[glad2bhere]

Kevin:

Check your PM; Re: a referral to your classes.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[hardheadjarhead]

I believe that Loyalty is important because like the saying of the Christians and Catholics say : ' The family that prays together stays together ' and by other expressions are like this one ' Strength comes from unity '.

Ramon,

While loyalty is a fine virtue, it is also a two way street. The student bows to the instructor, the instructor bows back.

I have seen students abused over the years by instructors...and Grandmasters...that preached loyalty and respect. Advocacy of these two virtues was used to humiliate and guilt-trip students when they questioned their mistreatment. It is often quite effective. Students with low self esteems are particularly vulnerable to it.

If you've not been subject to this abuse...wonderful. Many have been.


I believe that HapKiDo to be done correctly, it must not be mixed and I know that many other people do not think like I do and I respect that.

As for mixing...I've touched on this topic in other threads, other areas of Martialtalk, and in talking about other arts. IT HAPPENS. It is an inexorable process...one that can't be stopped. Students and instructors are going to look at other systems, kwans, styles, what have you and see something that they want to integrate. A Hapkido instructor will see a Shoot stylist do a trap off a kick and execute a take down off of it. It works. It is similar to one, perhaps, the HKD teacher knows. It fills a gap or it augments what he knows. He starts to experiment with it....

Is this wrong? Hardly. A scan of the history of the martial arts and human progress shows that this is an inevitable outcome. Arts evolve. They "mix genes".

Koreans were doing this fifty years ago. They might be doing it today, for all I know. I tend to see a conceptual arthritis setting into many arts, though, wherein the heads of systems promote their methods as "complete" and not needing any further development...unless, of course, they're the ones doing the developing.

Don't get me wrong...I have nothing against tradition or holding fast to techniques as taught by one master. The latter is necessary from an archival point of view, if nothing else. But that master DIDN'T learn techniques as handed down for 1,500 years, unchanged and immutable. Somebody, somewhere, experimented. They adapted. They absorbed.


Regards,


Steve Scott

[glad2bhere]

Dear Steve:

"......As for mixing...I've touched on this topic in other threads, other areas of Martialtalk, and in talking about other arts. IT HAPPENS. It is an inexorable process...one that can't be stopped. Students and instructors are going to look at other systems, kwans, styles, what have you and see something that they want to integrate. A Hapkido instructor will see a Shoot stylist do a trap off a kick and execute a take down off of it. It works. It is similar to one, perhaps, the HKD teacher knows. It fills a gap or it augments what he knows........."

Honestly I agree with everything you are saying. In fact there is a long tradition of students leaving their original school to trek to other schools to expand their training. Often times this was with a referral in hand from the old teacher to the new teacher! The biggest telling difference is that the student making the trek had a thorough founding in his original art before going on to something else and that original art was maintained as the focal part of that individuals' MA career. I think one of the best examples of what I am talking about was the famous lose of Minamoto Musashi to a stick-wielding opponent who spared his life. Musashi did not go on to incorporate stick fighting into Nito-ryu. He DID however go off and workout strategies that helped him overcome his opponent in a later encounter---- sparing that fellows' life in turn. The biggest mistake that I see is that students who aspire to mixing material do not wait until they have a decent appreciation of the tactics and strategies of a particular art but simply work to juggle a collection of disparate techniques. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[greendragon]

I will admit that I definately mix arts in my Hapkido classes.. I come from a wrestling background and have competed and coached that sport.. I incorporate wrestling in my Hapkido curriculum and I tell my guys that's what they are doing.. I think that the ground applications in Hapkido are not very good and are just a basic token when it comes to techniques, I feel as an instructor and martial artist that if I DON'T show my guys a better and more realistic way then I am a failure...
Michael Tomlinson

[glad2bhere]

Dear Michael:

From what I have been able determine the whole idea behind the Korean Mu-Do is exactly that----- to provide an introduction of sorts and then to expand on the material as needed. For instance, in Yon Mu Kwan there are some 36 pressure points at 1st degree BB and these are studied in hand with learning how to use the first weapon or soh bong. At 2nd degree BB there are 48 strike points and these are learned in conjunction with the dan bong. The same goes for the cane at 3rd degree and the sword at fourth degree. The point is, though, none of these curriculum are exhaustive. Rather they only teach the fundamentals, or introduction material. Depending on a persons' inclination or needs they might pursue in greater depth some one or more of these weapons, or maybe just focus on the MI hand material. In my case, for instance, I have come to really engage in sword work and long ago exceeded the basics that GM Myung posits. Another person might like to focus on cane because it also includes dealing with attacks in positions of disadvantage such as the ground-fighting you mentioned. In fact they might go into BJJ in depth to augment their Hapkido, but that would still be after they had mastered the basics so they understand how the various areas of training relate to each other. A person can stay with MT Hand and delve into the most minute aspects of that part and only learn the cursory information about the weapons. Another person may learn the soh bong and get stuck on learning pressure point fighting. It really depends on a persons' goals and character. However, to my way of thinking it always comes back to learning the Hapkido material first. That is the skeleton upon which everything else is hung. Hapkido for the Hapkido practitioner is the system that organizes everything else that comes their way. Without such organization, one has simply a grab-bag of disparate techniques. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

I see where we are inadvertently redirecting the direction of posted information. This subject (KHF & Mr. H) is fading on other sites also. Even the KHF site has nothing but "around talk" and very little at that.

Just have only one question......... Is anything going to be done about the problem(s) or has everybody had their fill of venting and now it will just fade away to resurface again sometime in the furture?

:moon: That's what the party in question will say to kiss if this just goes away.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Disco:

I don't know about anyone else but I have set some personal limits.

Originally there was to have been an announcement of great import on December 6th. Nothing has happened.

Since that time there have been what I would characterize as "clarifications" by various people but nothing definitive regarding the single individual in question.

As of January 6th there will have been 30 days for people to have laid out their concerns, summarize their "cases", communicate issues to people in positions of authority and forward any supportive evidence.

Now, I don't pretend to speak for anyone but myself but here is my take on things. For the last couple of years I have raised the issue of governement oversight for the Korean MA. What I have been told is that practitioners of the KMA want to watch themselves and not have governement interference. For me this is a major "acid test" whether such an effort will work. Any interested person has had a chance to know about the charges, become acquainted with the players and voice their position over the last 18 months. What remains is for the KHF to come forward with a plan of action. I suggest that 30 days is a sufficient amount of time in our day and age of instant communication. I also suggest that unless there is a meaningful and binding announcement in the next 30 dats, inclusive, the KHF has failed in its responsibility to enforce its own policies in a timely manner.

The issues raised are not simple infractions, but major misrepresentations and abuses of standing and authority. If the KHF is not up to handling such affairs---- and I submit that failing to announce a determination in 30 days would show this---- than I would conclude that they have lost the authority to represent themselves as an administrative entity for the Hapkido arts. That does not mean that they can't continue to represent themselves as a purveyor of certs and licenses, however, purporting to speak as a unifying and administrative representative for Hapkido will no longer be valid in my book and I will make sure that wherever the issue of organizations comes up in the future, I will be around to remind people of these travesties. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

Bruce, it looks like were the only ones interested in the outcome. I see over on the KHF site that Mr.H or someone saying they are is posting. That site is kind of confusing with regards to posters. Some times it's kind of hard to tell who's side some of them are on. It's just hard for me to understand that nothing and I mean nothing is being stipulated by either the KHF or the people affected by what has been done. I know if it was my money and time and name being trashed because of somebodies fraudulent actions, I'd be seeing red and looking for some kind of justice. I think I would be going out of my way to find some kind of recourse to go after the person in question and would be letting the entire Martial Arts world know what was going on, every chance I could get. But that's just me, perhaps My outlook is too provincial for these times.:idunno:

[Bob D.]

This is sort of hard to follow. For those of us who don't know, can someone tell me what's happening in a nutshell?
Thanks, B

[glad2bhere]

Sorry, Bob.

In a nutshell there has been some nasty business in the Korea Hapkido Federation and almost all of ti centers on the misrepresenations of a particular entrepeneurial member who took a great deal of license with what he said and did as he invoked the name of the KHF and its president Oh See Lim to support his behaviors. The controversey has raged for about 18 mos to 2 years now and while much of the behaviors have been uncovered for what they are, the KHF and its higher ranks seem retiscent to act on things for fear of alienating a sizeable number of people still affiliated with this person. In my own case, the injury has been particularly personal, and I have little faith that the KHF will do little if anything in any event. Hope this helps.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

Over on the KHF site, Mr. H is posting and it looks like things may be heating up somewhat. As I stated over there, I don't understand why any legal action (if it is warrented), has not been forthcoming. If the accusers have proof, then they should have done something by now you would think.

[glad2bhere]

It may heat up, but not because of me and not after today. I have pretty much washed my hands of him and anything he has to do with. Short of showing up at my class and making trouble he simply doesn't exist for me after today.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

Bruce, your position is understandable. Even though I have no connection to what has transpired, I was an interested observer to the proceedings. But it looks like there is nothing further to observe. If nothing has happened by now, I doubt anything will happen at all.

Mabey the old saying "Remember the Alamo" should be changed to "Remember the Enron".....:shrug:

[Disco]

http://hapkidokorea.org/english/ The BBS section. Mr. H if it is in fact Mr. H is calling the accusers out. This lends itself to one of two things. 1). He is untouchable from a legal standpoint or 2) This was nothing more than a personal vendetta by those who may have a legit grevience, but no real recourse other than to vent frustrations. Which is understandable if the legal option is unavailable. I think number 1 is most probable, otherwise something would have been done and reported to everybody by now. Do I believe that something dishonest or unscrupulous has occured? Most assuredly, to many people are claiming foul and stating such. To those that were/are affected by what has transpired, as a fellow KMA practicioner, I offer my humble apology on behalf of all honorable and respectfull martial artists, for what has happened. I guess it's time to follow Bruce's example and wash our hands of it.

This has done nothing but give the KMA's in general, a big black eye. :asian:

[Kodanjaclay]

First of all, I am one of those accusers. Second of all assumptions are a dangerous thing. It takes time to get all your ducks in a row. There is nothing more to it than that. I know others have already been in touch with various authorities, but having been in law enforcement, I have a very good idea of what is needed and the approach I need to take. The other problem for me is that many of my certificates are in FL in a storage bin, and I am in CA. My better half did not see the KHF cert or my CDK cert, so now I'm going to have to make time to go back and grab them. I cannot move forward until I have all the documentation I need, and in the appropriate formats.

Hope this helps.

In my mind, what the guy really needs is to be jerked into the woods and educated.

[glad2bhere]

This is NOT the first time this has happened and whatever occurs this particular person will be back--- or somebody like him. How do I know this? For cryin' out loud will you people please take a look at the circumstances?

1.) You are dealing in a service industry predicated on a cultural intangible. Right off the bat we are in the realm of peanut butter jars on Mars and how many angels can sit on the head of a pin.

2.) The real commodity of concern here is status and standing. As if things are not subjective enough already we are almost into the area of Britney Spears Marriage and Paris Hiltons' video tape.

3.) Look what happens when anyone tries to bring reason into the equation. Denial. Lies/deceit. Misrepresentation. Malfeasance.

4.) Look carefully at what the supposed authorities are doing about any of this. Nothing.

You know I would not get so het-up about this crap except everyone is acting like they really don't know what is going on here. Why don't you folks get honest with yourselves. You knew damn good and well that there was something wrong when rank was being sold for so much money and with so few questions and so little testing. Everybody knew something wasn't right but noone wanted to be the first person to blow the whistle. Please don't insult my intelligence by pretending all of this stuff went down and nobody had a clue. Statements without proof? Dirty tricks? Reputations impuned? And all of this is done from behind the safety of a phone never answered, a computer keyboard, or from the margin of a mat never trod. You folks knew damn good and well what was going on so now people are suppose to expect that you are somehow victims. Had it not been for a few select behavioral excesses this same crap would still be going on today and you all would still be supporting him.

There is something to be said for having a good woman in my life and I must tell you honestly (this goes out to Disco) that if anyone gets credit for encouraging me to back away from this circus its my wife and not me. Among Native Americans a man is measured by how mighty his enemies are. My wife was cagey enough to mention that by responding to the childish antics of such a person he stood to gain more by standing in the recognition of accomplished martial artists than he had the courage to earn honestly for himself. This is exactly the same patterns the well-known Internet Trolls use and what feeds their misbehavior. Its what makes people stand next to identified personalities in pictures, suck up to corporate heads at parties, avoid actually being seen doing techniques by anyone who could judge true competence, and negotiate for advancement rather than earn it.

I have already said much of this many times before and in a lot of places its time to stop. As I say to my clients in counseling I have no intention of working harder at your problems than you are. You already know whats wrong. Its up to you to fix it.

Regards,

Bruce

[Kodanjaclay]

Sir,

Very well said. And unfortunately, it is all true. I have to admit, I was one of them who did not want to admit the truth. I believed all the crap pumped into me because I did not want to see I had been wrong. I think its natural. We can only pick up the pieces and move forward. As I have clearly stated, that person is dead to me. I have moved forward, and am working on my future path, wich I cannot definitively say what it will hold, but then can anyone?

[Disco]

From the KHF web site:
The Mr. Richard Hackworth Case

The Korea Hapkido Federation announces that the case related to Mr. Richard Hackworth of Haemu-Kwan in the US has been processed as the follows;

1. The KHF does not recognize any qualification officially of Mr. Richard Hackworth except the next two;
o The KHF Certified 6th Dan Black Belt
o The KHF Certified Master

2. The KHF recognizes "Hae Mu Kwan" as a certified Dojang continuously.

3. The KHF restricts Master Richard Hackworth's official activities only at his Dojang "Hae Mu Kwan".

4. The KHF does not recognize any certificate at any case including Dan certificates which are issued by Master Richard Hackworth privately or in the name of "Hae Mu Kwan".



Jan. 7. 2004.
The Korea Hapkido Federation

So he's still a member in good standing and those that got wronged are just out of luck? Nice organization.:shrug:

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

So, it took the KHF two months to decide to do nothing except let the gravy train roll on...They have not addressed anything in regard to the suspicision of fraud or mis-representation - how sad...

For me, the KHF has lost any and all moral authority to issue rank in Hapkido if this kind of thing can go on. It is time to ignore the KHF as a governing body - that is not to say that very good people are not issued certs. there in the past, but from this day, I will not hold KHF rank with the same respect at all.

When a puppy makes a mess on the carpet, you don't just laugh and say "Its just the puppy in him...", you had better scold him and clean up the poop, or you will be knee deep in it really fast - welcome to the world of the KHF!

But hey, we could all just join the KHF, with school names like YakUp Dough Kwan, issue a bunch of phoney KHF paper, get lots of money, basically do whatever we want, including appointing ourselves 9th Dans, and the worst that can happen from the KHF? Nothing. They will reissue all the crappy paper we hand out (for a fee) and tell everyone that we have a particular rank - so the money will keep flowing in - hooray!

Just a few thoughts.

Kevin Sogor

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

There is another way to look at it, from what I can read.

To my eyes it seems as though this person has been isolated to his own school and publicly identified as no more than a "master". If I have this right anything associated with him outside of his own school carries no weight with the KHF. No KIHAP. No YUDO. No NHF. According to this the KHF has gone on record as saying there is no "grandmaster" and whatever he decides to do outside of his school management carries no weight with the KHF. I wasn't quite sure how to read that line about his particular kwan. I got the impression that the kwan is recognized as being a kwan but that doesn't mean anything to the KHF (????????). The only reason I point this up is I am not sure what the determination would be if the "school" decided to sponsor an event, and host standing members of the KHF. For instance, if Oh See Lim comes to Florida, could this person host Oh See Lim? Would tests conducted by Oh See Lim be recognized outside of the specific school? Would that mean that students raised in rank by the school owner wouldn't be recognized by the KHF, but KHF members of standing could be called in to promote students in his stead? I don't mean to confuse anyone or make a mountain out of a molehill. An important issue in all of this has been the manner in which standing was awarded in the KHF. I understand the person in question has no power beyond his own school, but what about those who are to come along? What if THEY want standing with the KHF. Everyone know what I'm asking?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

Looking at the logo of the KHF - The hand inside the circle with the finger pointing upwards.

Just crossed my mind - it should have been the other finger:shrug: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[whalen]

Bruce, as usual I'm not sure what your questions is, exactly. I've called in three people from the CIA to help me decipher your thoughts... the men in black have just left the dojang... :rofl:

But to get more to the point of what I think your questions are, procedural issues regarding testing, certification, and certain masters are still being ironed out.

What I can tell you is that the KHF will not recognize any Dan rank that is issued by individual kwans -- the kwans must register Dans through the KHF representatives/headquarters. Here's an example: I teach Hapkido Chun Do Kwan. I do not issue Chun Do Kwan Dan ranking. All of my blackbelts are registered KHF Dan holders.

Any graduate of the KHF instuctors/masters program can test their own students for KHF Dan ranking up to a certain level. An instructor cannot test and issue rank to students from another kwan or association

Higher Dan grades will probably be judged by the representative(s) in regional testings (to be determined) or in Seoul itself at the KHF headquarters.

I hope this starts to answer your questions. As we figure things out, I'll try keep you up-to-date.

Hal

[glad2bhere]

Sorry, Hal. Maybe I am making it more confused than it is, or maybe its just a difficult subject to tease apart over the Internet. Let me try one more time.

1.) Hackworths' efforts outside of the dochang are not recognized by the KHF. He may only do promotion inside of his own school as none of his promotions are recognized outside of his school. Right so far?

2.) One of Hackworths students want to be promoted to Black belt given that he has made it through all the Guep ranks appropriately.

OK, Pop Quiz, folks. Which of the following is accurate?

a.) Hackworth can go ahead and promote the student to Black Belt but no one in the KHF will recognize it.

b.) Hackworth can have a KHF person come in and test the student according to KHF curriculum and standards then the dan rank will be recognized by the KHF.

c.) The student can approach another organization, present his vitae with a letter from Hackworth and then that rank will be recognized by that organization, but not by the KHF even though Hackworth is still a member and teacher.

d.) all of the above.

If I am understanding the announcement my money is on "D". What cha think?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

1. The KHF does not recognize any qualification officially of Mr. Richard Hackworth except the next two;
o The KHF Certified 6th Dan Black Belt
o The KHF Certified Master

OK, what were they suppose to recognize outside of their own organization? Their Hapkido and that's what he's ranked in. We see that he is still recognized within their organization as a member 6th Dan Master Instructor. Boy, talk about slapping a hand.

2. The KHF recognizes "Hae Mu Kwan" as a certified Dojang continuously.

And this means what? It's a style - homegrown, that they say OK to. Just another number in their 78 kwans. Continuously........

3. The KHF restricts Master Richard Hackworth's official activities only at his Dojang "Hae Mu Kwan".

So what he does outside of his dojang is fair game?

4. The KHF does not recognize any certificate at any case including Dan certificates which are issued by Master Richard Hackworth privately or in the name of "Hae Mu Kwan".

Nothing new about that. On their web site it states that only KHF schools get KHF certification. They don't accept Kwan certifications. Strange, they accept the kwans as hapkido but have seperate qualifications for their ranking. So going to his Hae Mu Kwan school is just an access vehicle to get a KHF certificate. He has to request it for his students, which only means that the student, (the training is the same), must pay twice. One for HMK and then again for the KHF, if they should want both. As for the "Privately issued" I guess that means the bogus KHF certs that were allegedly sold as real. I wonder if they would recognize them if they received the fee's?

[TKDDad]

I have been following this issue on this and other sites for some time. I have a basic question regarding organizations like KHF:

If KHF and other organizations do not maintain any sort of quality control, what use are they? KHF reminds me of the spam emails I receive in droves regarding college degrees (send your money, we send you paper, everybody is happy.) If KHF doesn't monitor how dans are being passed out, I can't see any value in the organization. And unlike purely academic pursuits, there is no way to maintain quality control except through some type of videotaped demonstration method, which I have seen some other organizations pursue.

If the American with the second highest dan level of any non-Korean is not deprived of his certification, assuming a fraction of what has been said about him is true, there appear to be no standards for ethics or ability.

[Kodanjaclay]

Welcome to our train of thought.

[glad2bhere]

Dear TKD Dad:

reading your post I think you have a very sound grasp---
of 50% of the problem.

The 50% that you seem to understand is that if people have played fast and loose with quality control so what is the point of their verifying or affirming ranks. Yes--- all well and good. But there is the other 50% to wit: who WILL verify, affirm or otherwise provide quality control?? We DO need it! Now who is going to do it? And who will submitt to it. This is the other half of the problem. We already know who screwed-up, what happened when they did, and that we don't want any more of it. But unless you can channel Mother Theresa, who will have the integrity, honor, character and values to take on the job of underwriting certs such that people can trust that a 3rd dan truely is 3rd dan level, and 4th dan truely is 4th dan level, etc., etc.? This is where things stand right now and I will be damned if I am not having one helluva time getting people to even talk about these issues over on the KHF Net.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[TKDDad]

Thanks for the responses to my earlier post. I don't disagree that some system of certification is necessary, just that the systems I have seen beyond the dojang level are not viable. The systems that occur to me that might work would be considerably more expensive and time consuming than the current ones. Standardized, regional, public testing comes to mind, but it would require travel, universally accepted standards and only periodic testing, for instance.

The other comment I wanted to make was related to the current problem with the KHF in the US. Given that the KHF has made its decision, what will those who have been wronged do about it? I don't want to sound like an instigator (well, I guess I'm about to instigate) but I would like to know that those who say they have been cheated pursue some kind of remedy. I think that apart from trying to get some sort of justice, doesn't the HKD community want to stop further misuses of the art for personal gain? Do those who have been cheated realize that the statute of limitations clock is ticking on their claims, and that by doing nothing, they are deciding to allow the fraud to continue? Is anyone doing anything, like pursuing legal action, or will the accusations just continue flying back and forth?

I have not been cheated personally, but it bothers me that martial artists, of all people, would allow themselves to be injured and do nothing.

[glad2bhere]

Dear TKD Dad: (Is this how you want to be addressed?)

I was going to start with a disclaimer about string drift, but this string seems to have become a kind of ombudsman for all of these inter-related issues so here I go. ;)

"...... I don't disagree that some system of certification is necessary, just that the systems I have seen beyond the dojang level are not viable. The systems that occur to me that might work would be considerably more expensive and time consuming than the current ones. Standardized, regional, public testing comes to mind, but it would require travel, universally accepted standards and only periodic testing, for instance....."

Yes. When competition first came into TKD on a large scale I underestimated the benefit along these lines. From what I heard reported, competition rules became generally uniform so people could make informed decisions about which events they wanted to participate in, given the particular competition. Hey, thats life in competition, right. To me it seemed to naturally follow that testing criteria would naturally follow and that tournaments might well become the testing sites as well. Of course, the problem became one of fees and which way the revenues were going to go (Gee, big surprise!!).

In traditional Korean martial science, education had always been locally administered. "Quality control" such as it was occurred when the student went off to the Big City and wanted to parlay his MA skills into a career, say in security of the military. Then it was a matter of taking the Civil Service exam. No belts or certs. You were either competent and passed or incompetent and failed. For Hapkido I have often had a fantasy of yearly national tests for Dan rank, and semi-annual regional tests for gueps of standing (3, 2, & 1). The trouble comes in when there are variations in style (Kuk Sool vs Sin Mu, say). Also MA teachers have very thin egos and are easily affronted if their students don't do well. And, of course, there is the matter of revenues (as always).

".....The other comment I wanted to make was related to the current problem with the KHF in the US. Given that the KHF has made its decision, what will those who have been wronged do about it? I don't want to sound like an instigator (well, I guess I'm about to instigate) but I would like to know that those who say they have been cheated pursue some kind of remedy...."

The problem with this is that not a few of the people who have been "wronged" had some inkling of what was going on even as it was happening. I think of it as sorta like buying a watch from that guy with the overcoat on a street corner. Even as you are paying $50US for that "jen-u-wine Rolex" you just KNOW something ain't right. And are YOU going to let everybody know that you got burned trying to purchase a cert you had not really earned on the cheap? People can be pretty loud about being individuals of standing until someone comes along and starts talking about where the rank came from and why is a person 30 y/o and a 9th dan. I think its a little like being caught with you hand in the cookie jar. Logically it would seem that these people would want redress, but how many druggies will go to the Better Business Bureau to report a pusher that sold them talc instead of cocaine? Know what I mean?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[iron_ox]

Hello All,

Just a few random thoughts on this issue - to stir the pot some...

1. The KHF claims that they follow the lineage of Choi, Yong Sul as the founder of Hapkido - but some of their "kwans" were founded before 1945 - funny, Choi did not teach for the first time in Korea until 1948...

2. They recognize "X" number of Kwans of Hapkido (including a judo group??) but won't accept their certs. So, they will only issue their paper on whose recommendation? The kwan head, whose paper they will not accept? This smells of money scam here.

3. When the KHF was just the simple Korea Hapkido Association, the process was so simple, instructor applies for grade, grade is paid for, registered and sent...that was 30 years ago (my instructor got Korean paper this way in the UK) Now, the KHF acts like this is all new to them, well, go figure, they want to add all the money making layers like "instructor classes", blah, blah, blah, for people that will most likely never go to Korea

4. Americans need to realize that YOUR instructor is training you in your school, the paper he gives you is for you as recognition, your technique speaks the real volume - not a bit of paper - who cares if you get paper from Soeul? Unless you live in Korea, train in Korea, why do you want your instructor in Des Moines (lets say) to play second fiddle to a group of "grandmaster" you will never meet, will never meet you, and therefore have NO REAL BEARING on who you in Hapkido.

5. Check the credentials of the KHF brass - I'll give you all a day or so here -

6. The KHF follows the lineage of Choi, right, their site says so, well guess what guys, the Grandmaster put in charge of Hapkido by Choi before his death lives in New York City, not Korea, and get this, he doesn't recognize ANY of the Korean paper mills, KHF, KiDo, World KiDo, none of them...even funnier, the KHF never even mentions him (Grandmaster Chang, ChinIl) on any of their literature...hmmmmm

7. Paper is paper, look, I have seen some real nonsense over the years, but when the real laughs are in order, I harken back to a story of a Korean instructor that moved to the UK and went before the then governing control board, he claimed all kinds of rank, but had no paper, he said it was at home (in London) - but it would take him 10 days to get it - well off he went - back to KOREA - and sure enough, 10 days later returns with a stack of beautiful big certs. - problem was, during the flight, the paper was pressed together in his suitcase, and when he came before the control board to present the stuff, the non-cured ink had trandsferred to the backs of the certs on top...
The control board only wanted a letter from his parent group saying who he was...needless to say he never got the recognition he wanted. MORALE: If you think your group needs credentials, get a letter from a parent group that says that so and so is a qulaified teached and "X" rank, this letter might even change over time as the rank gets higher - that proves who you are and who your instructor is - not a bit of paper flown thousands of miles that makes just a rank claim. Good associations send out letters for FREE! Then, let your instructor give you rank - that is really all that counts...

8. On testing, well, your instructor sees you all the time, again, unless you live in Korea, a group like the KHF will never see you, who matters more here? Even a testing panel can be mislead if a candidate has a terrible day - but your instructor will know - you trust him/her to teach you, trust him/her to rank you.

9. Instructors, especially here in the US, if you are stuck in a rut, or are now independent and still looking for advancement, try training for it, there are lots of good US groups that will provide what you need - THE TRAINING - rather than pawning you off some bit of over priced wall paper...

Well, I feel better...

Kevin Sogor

[iron_ox]

Bruce,

I haven't fallen silent here, I saw your post on the KHF rag sheet, just kind of sitting back and listening and gathering more info. The more stuff I get on the KHF, the more I feel sorry for those that remain involved - look, the Titanic was beautiful in her day, but when she hit ice, all her weakness was exposed, and no amount of bailing could save her - welcome aboard the K.S.S. KHF...

Kevin

ps I am going to drop a little line for you on the rag sheet - they want you to shut up and train huh? Well, maybe its time to return for a play...

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

This has also been on my mind, the KHF takes great pains to tell everyone that they are "recognized by the Korean Govt."

WELL, golly gee, that's really sayin' sumthin, huh? The Korean Government is a paradigm for integrity and honesty, and all martial orgainzations that it recognizes are run by honest men - oops, well except the biggest, the Kukkiwon...

By the way, "recognized" means "pays taxes to" in most cases - like Hyundai is a recognized car maker - the Koreans would make you believe that Korean govt. recognition is a big deal and that only certain Super Dooper Grandmasters can set this up - well, Seo, In Sun set up a Hapkido Organization with Korean Government recognition after the split with the Korea Kido Hae - he is a third dan in Hapkido.

Your certificates are only worth two things: The time and effort you expend to train, and the instructor who writes them.

Unless the Koreans suddenly take over the US, Korean Govt. recognition of a Hapkido Cert. don't amount to squat.

Kevin

[Disco]

This travesty has been on going for years. The resent :btg: only brings it back to the surface for all to see. The term "cash cow" has been used in reference to Americans. When a piece of paper costs $1000 or more, there is nothing else you can call it. Plus the fact that there seems to be a seperate fee schedule for the U.S. This is based on other's who have posted on the KHF site and referenced such.

I feel iron ox has hit the nail on the head - "money scam". Just review the KHF web site for all their extras. The upper dan ranking requirements also leave something for the imagination.

I find it perplexing to say the least, that they have a list of 78/79 kwans/styles that the openly say we honor/respect, but they will not accept any ranking verification from them. For the life of me, how can any rational person subscribe to this B.S. Yeah OK, the pet rock does come to mind.......But that was only a dollar and it did serve a purpose - paper weight. :rofl:

Bottom line on all this from my perspective, based on what has been posted by all parties, is that the fraud aspect goes far beyond what has happen recently. Common sense and lack of authoritative action only reinforces this conclusion.

For all the respected and conscientious KHF folks directly or indirectly affected by all this. Your skills are yours, nothing can detract from that. But we are not discussing physical skill here, we are putting honor, respect, trust and integrity under the microscope. Just some of the tennents of your art and all martial arts in general. As it looks right now, the patient seems to have a malignancy and only the "House Doctor" - can remove it and make the patient healthy again. There's a saying in society, "You are judged by the company you keep".

[TKDDad]

Bruce:

The complicity of those cheated was something I suspected. That's usually the case with confidence games. I did feel that I needed to mention that time was working against those who complained the loudest about being cheated.

With what has happened in KMA (ie. WTF, Kukkiwon, USTU, and KHF), I think that everybody just needs to exercise some caveat emptor. It's amazing to me that where there is no legal requirement to be certified, those organizations would give themselves so many self-inflicted wounds. Reputation is everything.

Mike

[Disco]

THE KHF EXECUTIVE MEMBERS
Writer : The KHF (yesb279@hanmail.net)


1. Senior Committee

Lee, Tae Jun
Kang, Jung Su
Song, Young Gi
Kim, Jong Taek
Kim, Jong Yun
Kim, Duk In
Jin, Jong Mun
Yun, Myung Oh
Jung, An Se
Yu, Sang Ho
Park, Hyun Su

2. Special Committee

Lee, Dong Woo
Kim, Nam Je
Kim, Hyung Sang
Seo, Myung Il
Lee, Chang Soo
Noh, Su Gil
Kwon, Yung Jin
Han, Kyu Il
Chae, In Gil

3. The Directors of the KHF Branches


Pusan ....... Kim, Kyung Hwan
Taegu ....... Lee, Ju Hyun
Daejun....... Jin, Sung Woo
Kwangju ......... Kang, Hyung Bok
Inchoen ......... Kang, Young Kil
Ulsan ......... Lee, Sang Bok
Kyungki(N)...... Jun, Won Il
Kyungki(E)...... Song, Sung Young
Kyungki(S)...... Lee, Kun Hwa
Kyungki(W)..... Yu, Yun Wang
Chungbuk ...... Lee, Jin Ho
Chungnam...... Kim, Chun Yong
Junbuk....... Jung, Bong Ok
Junnam...... Kim, Si Yul
Kungnam..... Shin, Jae Hwan
Kangwon..... Jung, Ik Chul
Cheju...... Kim, Nam Kyu
Gumi...... Park, Myung Bok
Chungnam(S)...... Kim, Jin Woo
Chunnam(E)...... Kim, hung Su

Paris.............. Lee, Kwan Yung
London.......... Sam Plumb
Durham........ Kim, Bum
Boston......... Harrold Whalen
Frankfurut........ Choi, Gil Bong
Kuala Lumpur........ Julian Lim
Singapore......... Anthony Low
Buenos Aires....... Jose Antonio Lagier
Bogota........... William Rayo Rocero
Ecuador....... Gabriel Zarate
Orlando ...... Richard Hackworth (????)

4. Advisory Committee

Lee, Yung Sik
Lee, Jae Gun
Kim, Sang Moo
Lim, Jong Yun
An, Sung Yong
Jin, Bok Mun
Baek, Du Hyun
Lim, Myung Sup
Jung, Sun Sung
Kim, Byung Soo
Kim, Won Hong
Huh, Tae Whan
Jun, Jae Hwan
Kim, Ke Jong
Jung, Yung Chul
Huh, Nam Han
Kim, Yung Jong
Jun, Chong Sung

Han, Bong Soo (USA)
Kim, Yung Hwan (USA)
Choi, Se Ho (USA)
Kwon, Tae Man (USA)
Kim, Myung Yong (USA)
Kim, Jong Sung (USA)
Son, Tae Soo (USA)
Kim, Jin Pal (USA)
Holcombe Thomas (USA)
Lee, Sung Soo (Australia)
Shin, Yang Gi (Argentina)
Kim, Yong Chul (Canda)
Hwang, In Sik (Canada)
Kim, Woo Tak ( Canada)
Park, Hyun Soo (Canada)
Park, Hee Soo (Canada)
Shin, Hyun Sung (Spain)
Park, Kyubg Won (Spain)
Yun, Man Soo (Chile)

:confused: Kind of tells everybody how the cash register works.

[Kodanjaclay]

Hackworthless is a new addition. At this point, I want nothing else to do with Hapkido, or the Korean "govorning body". I wonder how many people I would have to cheat to become a grandmaster?

[Disco]

Frank, just looked at the same list over at Budoseek and Mr. H's name is not on that list. Perhaps this is someone's idea of a joke by posting it that way on the KHF site.

[Kodanjaclay]

Not unless they hacked it. It was just added today. It was snuck on, and it is in the area for KHF use only, ie if not hacked the webmaster added it.

[iron_ox]

Frank,

No disrespect here, but why are you done with Hapkido? The KHF crapped on you, not Hapkido in general...You were told, and falsely lead to believe that the KHF was the "governing body" for Hapkido - well at last count in Korea, at least 4 organizations are there with the same govt. standing, including the Kido Hae which predates all of them...

I am somewhay confused at some of the attitudes of American KHF members, first, there is outrage over the fake certificates, then, no one is punished, then Hal Whalen is named as Boston Rep. and everyone says "Yeh!" - but the same "guilty" parties are still in good standing with KHF - so they are all still in the mix - now, as expected, the KHF back peddles again and names a Florida Rep. and people are really upset...

Hal Whalen may be a good guy in this, but he is the Rep. of a lousy organization - too bad really.

Frank, maybe instead of saying you are done with Hapkido, just say you are done with the KHF, once and for all, get others to follow your lead, and this mess in the US will be put to rest.

For what its worth Frank, I invite you to train with me in Chicago whenever you are here, and I promise, I will not sell or even give you fancy wall paper, we will do what is the best part of Hapkido, TRAIN!

I could really care less if the KHF survives or not, but in its current state, it should not be allowed to do business in the US...

Kevin

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Just a thought, seems funny to me that the totally biased Mr. Carver from BludoSeek shows up on the KHF site, asks some questions and blammo, Florida Rep. appears...

How will this work, Florida has stated how much he hates Boston and Kim Bum in the UK, can they all just get along. HAHA!

Why did anyone think this was ever going to work? Florida was never kicked out and would have Boston as his superior. Also funny how Florida blasted the KHF Director on the KHF site, and no action, now KHF President will make another appearance in Florida - this whole orgainzation is a joke that stains Hapkido.

Looks like the President and the Director of the KHF have different agendas altogether - although maybe another name change is in the works, at least for "English" - how about Korean Hapkido con-Federation?

Randon thoughts,

Kevin Sogor

[Kodanjaclay]

Kevin,

Assuming for one second that I am inclined to stay affiliated with Hapkido, what makes you think the Kido, or another organization will be any different? Kukkiwon just got busted, the KHF is CLEARLY on the take, there was the KTA scandal... so why would I be so inclined to think that another organization would be good? I'm just looking for a little information, not trying to be inflammatory. Kido has closed it doors until 2006 for similar issues. It is disconcerting to find that the organizations themselves to not hold to what we were taught as color belts. Does that mean we are part of the same fraud? Why do I bother to train when someone walks in with a couple hundred bucks more and gets exactly what he wants without training?

Maybe you are right, and right now I'm just very dejected, but look at it from my point of view. People I trusted for a very long time, lied to me, and took my money. That makes it somewhat difficult to trust. Funny thing is, just before that name was snuck into the list, Hal Whalen had just about talked me into the giving the KHF a second chance. Then whammo.

[Disco]

Frank, I truely understand your frustration with the KMA's. The main problem is not in the art(s), but rather in the people that represent. I know the following statement will surely piss off lots of people, but I call it as I see it. The Koreans, in general, only care about the money. I've seen them turn everything they touch into crap. Past history only validates this (USTU, KTA, KHF, Kukkiwon, OLC etc.). I've watched how they cater to those that will increase their pocket book, while other's who train and excell only serve as a threat to them and they will not promote accordingly. It was not always like that. How and why it changed could have many roads, but they all converge on the highway of greed. There may be some out there that are lucky enough to have a good GM and have a great relationship based on mutual respect. There are possibly a few of the old core Instructors left, but very, very few. I've ranted about the possibility of having an American Organization, but I recant that idea. I honestly think that the time has come to return to the original concept of the kwans. No more organizations, just your school and your instructor. The bottom line to all this is your training. If it serves you and you are confident in it's effectiveness, then that's all that matters. I have yet to hear or see where anybody stopped an attacker by showing or hitting him with their certificate. :rolleyes:

You all ready have an invite to train in Chicago. You ever find yourself back in Florida, you have an open invitation to come and laugh and train at our little corner of the world. I'm sure there are other's here that would extend their hand of friendship also. That to me represents true martial arts integrity - sharing and learning.

[iron_ox]

Frank,

Sorry, didn't want to give you the wrong idea...I am not saying any other organization in Korea is better that the KHF - they all have real serious problems - not to mention, as I have, that the current head of the Choi Lineage, Chang Chin Il does not recognize any of the current Korean Groups!!

What I was saying is that there is lots of Hapkido out there, even some orgainzations, that represent the martial art a lot better than the KHF. I just don't think its fair to label the art as a loss for an association (KHF) that is in full decline.

Yep, I do belong to some organizations, and in my 25 years or so in Hapkido, I have seen some better groups than others, now, with me, my students have a choice to join the groups I am affiliated with or not. My certificates are stand alones, or students can also get paper from my affiliations as well, but like I said before, if you ever end up near Chicago, lets train - there are no strings - just a little joint pain (but that generally goes away in a day or two...)

Associations are only as good as the leadership, and the membership - but I will say this, when someone walks in and buys a grade with big bucks - that is the time to move on and not feel sorry -

Disco,

I feel that we already have a few good American organizations that represent Hapkido - we also have several smaller Korean Groups that may be a good bet - I'll keep you posted...

However, I do agree with you, the school system is the key - an instructor grades his students, if he finds like minded other instructors, they accept each others grades and share ideas - OK, it does sound like an association, but in this model, the money element and the EGOS are left behind...

Sincerely, a hapkido instructor,

Kevin

[iron_ox]

Let the grass grow tall in Korea, because the US membership of the KHF wants to take a big bite!

The cash cow says MOOOOO!


LOL!

Kevin

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin, Mike, Frank et al:

Sometimes when I am working with a client and things don¡¯t add up logically, that is my first indication that something is seriously wrong and I need to reconsider what I thought was happening. I am getting the same gut reaction here. Too many times have I seen 2+2 and the answer is anything but four.

1.) Robert from BUDO-SEEK comes on and says lets do a certificate comparison. OK, fine. Where? When? How? Certs have been passed around all over the place but how is it that noone QUITE seems to get around to getting all of the players and papers in the same room at the same time with someone who can speak with authority about the authenticity of the paper? Funny how this simply obvious solution never quite gets accomplished because in the end it would settle this once and for all.

2.) How about the game of ¡°KHF Scrabble¡±? It depends on what your definition of ¡°is¡± is, right? When is a ¡°director¡± not a director, and when is a grandmaster not a grandmaster? When is a representative truly a representative? In the schizophrenic world of the KHF apparently these issues only arise when the president is paid to say one thing and the director is empowered to say another thing. Get a clue!! If Oh See Lim is truly coming back to Florida for another fiasco, when are people going to figure out that there is divisiveness in the KHF and a power struggle over which way the KHF is going to go. Oh See Lim is routinely invoked by the people in Florida and he has yet to come out AGAINST the people in Florida. Do you need to get hit with a hammer to figure out what¡¯s happening here?

3.) And while I don¡¯t want to rub salt in your wounds, Frank, the fact is that you NEVER had any connection with Hapkido save the TP that your were sold. You bought it so you could have bragging rights to Hapkido, and had this whole mess not been exposed I am sure you would have defended vigorously your right to speak for the Hapkido community and invoked both Hackworth and you TP to do it. As far as I can see, you giving up Hapkido would be very much like me giving up Cricket! In fact, if it comes to that, what is that other persons¡¯ big claim to membership in Hapkido? Nothing except the paper he has purchased and the illusion he promotes to people who are to dumb too know better.

4.) I was saying to Hal that I would not mind joining the KHF and pitching in to help out, but I have a rule that I NEVER work harder at getting better than the sick person I am helping. The KHF is the way it is because , frankly, a good number of people want things that way. I would not be surprised to hear that Hal is having HIS share of folks banging on his door looking for easy validation now that Florida is not an option (or is it?).

In closing let me say that the Hapkido arts are difficult to learn, training is long, arduous, uncomfortable and very often demanding in many ways. I¡¯m hearing a lot of people who are long on talk and short on doing. Kevin has offered training time to Frank. I have already put things in motion to spend more time at that same place myself, so we could get some really great training going in Chi-town if things work right. In the near future we have GM Lim, Hyun Su coming to Chicago in March and the 20th International in Jackson, Miss. If people want to keep up this keyboard tennis match that¡¯s on them. As far as I am concerned the responsibility for being an organization of integrity is now on the KHF. But from this point on I have nothing to prove to them to ¡°get¡± membership. As far as I am concerned, they have demonstrated that THEY are unworthy of either my membership, my time or my further comment.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kodanjaclay]

"And while I don¡¯t want to rub salt in your wounds, Frank, the fact is that you NEVER had any connection with Hapkido save the TP that your were sold."

This is not exactly true. I never had a connection to a Hapkido organization. I went with the KHF, because I had been convinced of its importance, not for bragging rights. I have always maintained that I am happy with a cert hand written on a napkin. My anger is that I was lied to as well as cheated financially, and the "important" organization has basically sanctioned it. I prefer the smaller Kwan route, and that is the way I intend on following.

[Robert Carver]

Wow Bruce, awesome post!

Over the course of this whole drama, I have sat back and tried to keep things in perspective and not draw any conclusions either way. I have tried to keep an open mind until the ax falls one way or another. I get to hear both sides of the story concerning the whole affair; from the folks that want to nail Hackworth to the wall and from his defenders. Considering the total lack of action by the KHF and many of the little things that, like you said, don't add up, I am not sure what to think. One of the things I mentioned yesterday on the KHF site was that I has heard the rumour that the KHF site was not even the real KHF site and that Oh Se Lim was not even aware of its existance until recently. So I go to Network Solutions (http://www.networksolutions.com) and I do a Whois query. Lo and behold, I learn that the domain koreahapkido.org is not even owned by the KHF. Maybe the site IS the official KHF site and maybe it is not. However, we have one more little thing that doesn't add up. It has been this, the lack of definative disciplinary action to a member that is accused of fraud, and a host of other little things that don't add up that have led me to believe that the KHF is in far bigger trouble than "just" a possible renegade member from Florida.

[Kodanjaclay]

I agree. And based on the actions of the leadership, the question now is, just who is to blame? The one who decieved? Or is he merely following the business model given to him? Seems to me you are 100% right and the KHF IS in deeper trouble.

[Disco]

OK, everybody is in agreement that, 1) The KHF is not the pre-eminent organization that they would like you to believe they are and 2) People were taken.

So now back to original opening question, which I think Iron Ox referenced in a prior post, IS ANYTHING GOING TO BE DONE BY THOSE THAT WERE WRONGED?............. Any charges pending? Any kind of litigation at all?

If nothing is happing or going to happen, where just :deadhorse

[glad2bhere]

"......OK, everybody is in agreement that, 1) The KHF is not the pre-eminent organization that they would like you to believe they are and 2) People were taken....."

Sorry, guy, but you left off one small but very important point.

"3.) And this is the way people want it."

The fact is that the Hapkido arts are not unique and that people have been effectively buying rank for YEARS. It goes on in TKD, TSD, HKD, Karate, Judo and any other place where the esteem in which an art is held comes from the fact that it is demanding and its standards are high. I can also tell you that people are always ready to sell rank and standing for a good dollar. Oh, I bet you can come up with the names of some people with high standards who DON'T engage in this, but I can also tell you that there are a helluva lot more disgusting jerk-offs who trade in such things quite regularly. But it doesn't stop there.

Some folks who have traded comments back and forth have noticed that I have steadily cut back in the number and frequency of contributions on this and other Nets. Guess what, folks! My disgust is not limited to the people who misrepresent their standing, inflate their accomplishments or bribe office holders to go along with their agendas. I'm pretty fed-up with the laziness and apathy that allow the arts to continue to spiral downward when, for a little engagement and effort we can turn out some of the best MA around! But that would mean making a commitment, keeping our word, and having integrity. And since the biggest sin a person can committ in American society is to find themselves being held accountable, most folks would rather do anything than find themselves in a position where they had to really do what they said they were going to do. For my money, If I want to be around people who lead a lifestyle of wiggling out of committments or excusing themselves, I'll get a job teaching grade school and spend my lunch hours montoring recess. At least those kids have a reason to behavior like children.

Best Wishes and good luck.

Bruce

[Disco]

But I look at from a little different perspective. Yes there are those who like it as "status quo". I've seen more than my share of them. And yes it will not stop or go away. That's human nature. All the one's I've seen taking this road either drop by the wayside because they are not truely into the arts or they make such a jerk out of themselves that they retreat from the scene. There are exceptions however. There are those that can actually walk the walk, but their ego's have taken control. These to me are the worst kind to deal with and in reality can't be dealt with. All one can do is to try to avoid them at all cost. As for the other's, they actually help, in the longrun, the honest Instructors. The old saying cream rises to the top comes to mind. Once someone gets involved in the arts, they will become educated. They will be able see for themselves that what their being taught is crap and they will move on to search out the real deal. These are the poeple who matter and yes, they are small in number. The other's who are there to just wear a uniform and belt will just wear a uniform and belt. Don't need to waste time on those.

Bruce my friend, you are a dinosaur, much like myself. A throwback to the right way of doing things. Holding Honor, Trust, Integrity, Humanity and Perseverance in high accord. For this I salute you. Perhaps someday we may get the chance to trade recipe's.

Respectfully
Mike Dunn
:asian:

[glad2bhere]

..........'til that day......;)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kodanjaclay]

Disco,

There is an issue for me. I cannot speak on behalf of everyone; however, my documents are on the other coast, and do not expect to get to them until next month. Then I have the lucky job of figuring out if I have to file in VA, FL or both... my games are just beginning. I am not interested in his money, or even getting my money back. What I am inteterested in doing is stopping him. I definitely intend on going as far as I can with this.

[Disco]

Frank, I/we hope that you are successful. People that prey upon other's under the guise of legitimate markings need to be exposed and removed. Your success in this endeavor will also send a message to the organizations that harbor these people, that they are not untouchable either. Don't mean to put the weight of the world on you, but I'm sure you realize that everybody is now put on notice that the game is just starting. I/we realize that this is a lonely/singular battle, but rest assured that you have the moral support and best wishes from myself and other's.

Respectfully
Mike Dunn

[Disco]

Now the KHF has started to invite and organize Hapkido people in order to gather as a unified organization and promote the orthodoxy Hapkido. In this process, the KHF has decided not to call any masters into question for their past negative activities, if they vowed to never conduct themselves in the same manner again. This decision was made even though it could become a big burden to the KHF. (However, if these individuals continue to act in ways detrimental to the KHF, they will be removed from our ranks.)

This is really a slap in the face to everybody connected to the KHF that has any integrity. To me this is a politicans way of saying, next time you won't catch us....

[iron_ox]

Disco,

I just saw that post on the KHF site - they have all but admitted that there is corruption afoot - Should this organization really be taken seriously? I don't think so.

Hapkido, like many other martial arts is structured not only around old tradition, but on the respect and trust of students - how can that be possible if lying is the norm and accepted...

One thing is omitted in the KHF post - or maybe not, but what about the victimes they are acknowledging exist? Too bad for them right, so long as the "masters" keep sending in the money - who cares about them - there are enough suckers born every minute to keep playing the schill game with certs., right?

The KHF continues to dig the hole...deeper and deeper, maybe to tunnel directly from Korea to US - hey money could get there faster that way...

I will no longer recognize any KHF wall paper of any kind - I know who cares about me - but if others follow this simple lead, KHF has to get there act together or they will wither and die on the vine.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

[Disco]

Well we pushed and prodded to get the KHF to take a stand and they have, right in the middle of the :toilclaw:

As I stated prior, everything now falls on Frank's shoulders. He's the only one (to our knowledge) that can do anything to these people. The rest of us are just preaching to the choir.

As you pointed out, there are more than enough suckers out there for them to move on to. I doubt very seriously that we'll see anybody from the KHF turn their backs and burn their certificate(s) in objection to the KHF position. I mean, look at all the time they have spent training to shoot arrows from horse back :lol:
Not to mention all those that train diligently to be able to throw needles at their attacker. Or was that to be able to sew on their directorship label. :rolleyes:

I wonder how many here in the U.S. have received a medical lic. to practice acupuncture? At least that training can make a difference to their students. Put that needle in the right place and they won't even feel their wallet being lifted.:mst:

Final thought. All these years many have managed to train and become part of the arts without the :kiss: from the KHF. For all those that have managed to struggle along on this path, we issue this salute to the KHF staff - :moon:

[iron_ox]

Hey Disco et al,

Here is something I have been thinking about. What if all the participants away from Korea have been duped by the KHF? Suppose everyone was told one story or another in a very simple attempt to keep all the American factions fighting each other?

This in fighting would leave the KHF brass the upper hand to control each faction...and would ensure that the factions would never band together and demand service or quality...

This scenario seems more and more likely with the most recent "we forgive" garbage of the KHF - simply, the in fighting got out of control, so the next strategy is to calm things down and start a new program to milk the money - why else would they appoint two representatives in this country that have so much bad blood between them?

Keep 'um off balance, cause its easier to empty their wallets as they fall over...


Kevin Sogor

ps I have never heard any stories that would suggest that Choi, Yong Sul ever rode a horse, much less shot arrows from one...

[Disco]

Kevin, it's doubtful that anyone outside of Korea would be able to get service and quality, regardless of numbers. My personal opinion; if I had a KHF cert, I would be ernestly looking to validate it with another organization and remove myself from any dealings with them. But hey, that's just me. I've been accused before of not being "A Team Player", because I tried to get people to be accountable. Pretty stupid on my part,... huh!.....

They (KHF) has made it very clear that they are part and parcel with what has happened. There's no other way to view their position. Some may try to defend their position because they feel loyality. This is understandable - to a point. To attempt to validate the KHF position in reference to major dishonest and disreputable actions, one would honestly have to believe that the rest of us were deaf, dumb and blind. That unto itself is disrespectful and the person who attempts such a joke is no better than the person that caused all of this in the first place.

To be completely honest, this subject has become exacerbating. Positions have been stated and nothing is going to change. The only thing that can be accomplished is if Frank is able to follow through with legal action.

[Kodanjaclay]

I am, as we speak, trying to get the ball rolling with the appropriate authorities. I expect to be contacting the Florida Attorney General's office later this week.

There is; however, something else I am working on. Since the KHF is over seas, and feels it is not accountable to anything, or anyone here, I have elected to take my battle to Korea. Should I be successful, what I have done will be apparent to all who read this post.

I won't clarify in this media, as I don't want certain parties to be able to make a defense.

In another vein, I am also working on the involvement of mainstream media. TKDT is not a large enough venture, and based on the current scandal in tKD, I doubt they would want to report on another scandal at this time... however, there are news outlets who LOVE a good scandal, particularly when it involves losing money. In this effort, the contact information of anyone else who has been attacked, or duped would be helpful.

I can be reached at frankclay@msn.com. Let's hope apathy doesn't let this slip away.

[Disco]

http://hapkidokorea.org/english/gallery_files/newlogo2_2004_02_05_1075990009.gif


The post I made on page 9 of this thread came true. Now if I could only do that with the lottery numbers.:D :rofl: :rofl:

[Disco]

Frank, trying to tackle the home front (Korea) is questionable. Their cultural differences could give you more problems than you bargained for. You may want to let a sleeping dog lie so to speak. Besides, they have proven time and again that they could care less for outside opinions. I think it would serve you and other's better to focus your efforts on Florida and company. Speaking of Florida, did the AG give you anything positive to followup on? You mentioned on your last post that later in the week past you were going to contact them. Kind of surprised you waited this long. Personally, I would have been looking to pound some salt months ago. You must be a very good natured person and respect friendship. I've seen where you still are trying to be of service to people on behalf of Boston. Your a better man than me. I would have packed and set sail long ago from the KHF and anything remotely connected with them.

As far as mainstream media goes, I'm sure you are well versed in making sure that no backfire doors get opened. I'm sure any information you have gotten from the Fla. AG will guide you in the right direction. Please keep us posted as to your progress.

[iron_ox]

From the KHF Site:

Confusion caused by English name of the KHF
Writer : the KHF (yesb279@hotmail.com)


"The Korea Hapkido Federation" is the English name of ¡°Dae Han Hapkido Hyup Hwoe". "Dae Han" means Korea, and "Hyup Hwoe" means federation in English.

1. "Dae Han" or "Han Kook" in Korean expression
The official name of Korea is "Dae Han Min Kook" in Korean, and "The Republic of Korea" in English. Many people use the name of "Han Kook" from the second and the fourth syllables of the full name "Dae Han Min Kook" for convenience, when they call a country, Korea. (Kook is sometimes expressed in Kuk.)
And "Dae Han" is used traditionally as a prefix in lots of names to express Korea like in the official name of the country, Korea. When you see names containing the meaning of Korea, you can easily find "Dae Han" in the names of traditional, original and historical. So many names appearing after them have no alternative except "Han Kook" to express Korea.
However, all these are translated in the same word "Korea" or "Korean" in English. And this make non-Korean speaking people very confused.

2. "Hyup Hwoe" , "Federation" and "Association"
¡°Dae Han Hapkido Hyup Hwoe" has its name in English ""The Korea Hapkido Federation". Here, "Hyup Howe" is translated in "Federation" instead of "Association". For sometime, people didn't care much about the English expression. We know that the literal meaning of "Hyup Howe" is closer to the word "Association". And we admit that normally it is translated in association. However, the boards of directors adopted the word "Federation". And we have registered that name as our foreign name to the Korean government for ¡°Dae Han Hapkido Hyup Hwoe" since 1990.



So, in case you still don't know how to make out the money orders for the worthless wallpaper, you have now been reminded of the proper name...

This is the kind of thing that con artists do; remind you of the proper spelling of their name, before they empty your wallet...

This post by them is just bizarre to me.

Kevin Sogor

[Master Todd Miller]

I think that part of the problem is when people think that because an organization is bigger, this means better. As we have seen this is not always true. Before Doju Nim Choi passed on he had already condemmed the KHF for being fraudulent and this was 1982 - 86. If you find a good kwan and you like the Master stick with it. Remember paper is only paper and a certificate is only as good as the weakest person holding it in any organization.

Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association

[Disco]

Very interesting, thank you Mr Miller for the information. The founder of Hapkido - Choi, blasted them in the 80's. It seems as though when we have someone new that joins the discussion, another damaging piece of information is brought forth. So all this landfill garbage goes back over 20 years. There's only one question here. How in the world were they allowed to continue for so long. Kind of makes one wonder if some of the higher ranking American members actually have legit standing. But then again, if Choi called them a fraud, perhaps nobody is legit in the organization. That would be a shame, especially to all the honest hardtraining individuals who's only fault was to place their trust in the wrong people.

I have stated before that perhaps it was long overdue for the seperation and establishment of a new American organization by the members who can see the so called "Forest for the trees". Why members would want to stay attached to something that clearly has shown disreguard for just about everything is beyond me. Even though I personally am not involved, I do get tired and annoyed, every time I see people being taken advantage of by people who are supposed to be above reproach and who are supposed to represent the Martial Arts at it's highest level.

[glad2bhere]

Ok, Ok, I KNOW this has come up a zillion times. And, yes, I know that the Korean culture has problems tranliterating Western institutions and agencies into Korean just like we have the same problem going the other way. I just find it very hard to believe that the Korean language does not delineate between an association and a federation when the meaning is all too clear to Westerners. Certainly the Koreans must discern between organizations in which the right of determination is predominantly in the hands of the membership and one in which it is mostly delegated to elected or designated officials---- don't they? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

OK, now I'm more than totally confused. Over on Budoseek.net, Mr. H is posting and from the information that's spruing forth, there seems now to be (2) TWO different and Seperate(?) KHF organizations. DUH!....... This is starting to look like a Chinese Fire Drill:mst:

I've heard more straight talk from the extra-terrestrials that visit and do anal probes:lol: on our Politicans (I'm pretty sure that's what happens, cause we all know that they think different than the rest of us) :uhohh:

If CBS is looking for a new soap opera, looks like they'll find one here. Casting should be interesting, cause all the martial arts movie stars that have won Oscars will surely be lineing up to audition. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Disco
OK, now I'm more than totally confused. Over on Budoseek.net, Mr. H is posting and from the information that's spruing forth, there seems now to be (2) TWO different and Seperate(?) KHF organizations. DUH!....... This is starting to look like a Chinese Fire Drill:mst:

I've heard more straight talk from the extra-terrestrials that visit and do anal probes:lol: on our Politicans (I'm pretty sure that's what happens, cause we all know that they think different than the rest of us) :uhohh:

If CBS is looking for a new soap opera, looks like they'll find one here. Casting should be interesting, cause all the martial arts movie stars that have won Oscars will surely be lineing up to audition. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Too Funny

[glad2bhere]

I guess I am not understanding why it is taking people so long to understand what they are dealing with here.

Oh See Lim represents the desire to expand Hapkido as an international venture after the fashion of TKD/TSD/ WHRDA/WKSWA/etc. To this end, money talks and is the final (if not lowest) common denominator in everything that is done in his name. He split off from the KHF to produce the "world federation" because a significant portion of the masters associated with the original KHF see a crying need to support the Hapkido arts as a cultural institution worthy of respect and integrity. You will continue to see certs sold, seminars promoted and various other commercial efforts made using Oh See Lim as the guarentor of their efforts. If business integrity actually meant anything, do you think that Robert would be letting those posts on BUDO-SEEK? Do you think that Pointer would allow his name to be mentioned? You folks folks need to wake-up and smell the manure. The much-touted "victims" in this melodrama knew exactly what they were doing and have now coalesced around the new organization in a knot of mutually-affirming fakes. It would be the same as if Ji Han Jae suddenly lent his name to a franchise chain of Hapkido parlors, and entrepeneurs elected to give each other fancy paper and agreed to support each others illusions. Its the same thing that Pelligrini did and for my money members of this "new organization" will get the same regard from me that I would give any other leper colony, though I would probably has much greater respect and compassion for the lepers. At least they don't pretend to be something that they are not.

Now, I understand that this is NOT the way it is in a lot of places. This is NOT the way it is in many organizations. This is not the way it is with many arts. It IS however the way it is with this particular situation whether you like it or not. Want things to change? Find a teacher/organization that reflects your values and support the S*** out of them!! FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Master Todd Miller]

Well put Bruce. Many of the great Hapkido Masters have realized that where the KHF was heading was in a comercial direction rather than a traditional direction. The sad thing is that the KHF is only one of many that are guilty of the same thing!

Take care
Todd Miller

[glad2bhere]

Thanks, Todd. And now, if you don't mind I thought I would turn the tables on you.

Since we could go on for ever lambasting the zeroes, how about if we take a minute and have you tell us what it is that you find desireable about GM Lim and his approach. Don't want to put you on the spot. I just think that sometimes people like Lim don't get focused on because so much light is shown on the jerks and bozo-s. I guess what I am asking is not so much WHAT he teaches but what you find attractive about his method or manner of teaching. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Master Todd Miller]

what you find attractive about his method or manner of teaching. Thoughts?


1. GM Lim will teach anyone regardless wheather or not you join his group.

2. He has never demoted people from other groups even though lack of skill/knowlege is evident.

3. My understanding is that GM Lim's focus is on learning original Hapkido not on politics.

4. I do not know of anyone that can accuse GM Lim of A. selling rank B. promoting himself above what Doju Nim Choi promoted him.

5. GM Lim starts everyone at the same place no matter what rank they are at, the basics.

I could go on and on but I think the best way to understand is to get on the mat with him and see and feel what he does.

Thoughts

Todd Miller

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

Very interesting how you can pack so much importance in just a few lines. If people had the same response to what you wrote as did I, I am guessing that thoughts like "damn, it takes a lot of guts to be a teacher like that in this modern commercial world" or something close to that. Does GM Lim support himself through his Hapkido efforts, or is this secondary to his "day job" ? When he starts people at the same point with the basics does he try to shape the individuals past experience into the methods of what he teaches, or does one simply start over again at square one? If you had an opportunity to train in DRAJJ itself, would you have passed on GM Lim's material, or is there some special connection you have found with Lim that you might not have risked trying to find with another instructor. (Sorry-- I know that last question is a bit vague.)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Master Todd Miller]

Very interesting how you can pack so much importance in just a few lines. If people had the same response to what you wrote as did I, I am guessing that thoughts like "damn, it takes a lot of guts to be a teacher like that in this modern commercial world" or something close to that. Does GM Lim support himself through his Hapkido efforts, or is this secondary to his "day job" ? When he starts people at the same point with the basics does he try to shape the individuals past experience into the methods of what he teaches, or does one simply start over again at square one? If you had an opportunity to train in DRAJJ itself, would you have passed on GM Lim's material, or is there some special connection you have found with Lim that you might not have risked trying to find with another instructor. (Sorry-- I know that last question is a bit vague.)

1. I do not think he relies strictly on his dojang for income.

2. GM Lim teaches what most Hapkido Masters/Grandmasters do not, Off Balence your opponent. After you have done this you can use what he teaches or you can draw from your past experience. The key is being able to break you opponents balence so strength is not required to make techniques work nor strikes or kicks.

3. I have studied DRAJJ and found that system to not be as sophisticated as GM Lim's Hapkido. I also would never do anything to jepordize my relationship with GM Lim.

Take care
Todd Miller

[shadow warrior]

OPEN QUERY!

Maybe it is time to have a get together of serious Hapkido Instructors in North America with their own schools, legitimate HAPKIDO lineages and at least twenty-five years of pure Hapkido training.

Perhaps a new "non financial" way could be found to confirm Hapkido skill sets and students standards! Peer recognition is a very solid way to establish skill set performance. This is particularly true when you watch a teachers students.

It would be very beneficial to set aside all of the fraud, racism and corruption and begin anew!! With a hope of Hapkido surviving as a style not requiring a person to spend ten years learning how to be an expert archer from horseback!! NOT!!

A KWAN of Hapkido agreement!! NOT A FRAUD OF INSIDER TRADING!!
Just a thought tossed around by a few instructors last year..

Keith Stewart
Head Instructor
East West Hapkido
Toronto
www.eastwesthapkido.com

[glad2bhere]

Dear Keith:

I don't see such a thing happening until you have a sufficient number of Hapkido practitioners who will, of their own volition, put the good of the art and its practitioners ahead of that of leadership and the organization. There are a number of such "quiet" organizations in Korea and a few here in the States but they are a long time building and must constantly be on guard against people joining to exploit the membership. On another note, MA are, by nature, very independent minded and do not submitt to guidance from others, even their peers, and even when it is in their best interests. For my part I have tried to connect with several folks at various locations and routinely been met with suspicion and defense. All I was seeking to do was Network with people whom I thought were interested in quality. I have been disappointed every single time.

Can you get people to put their fear of losing students to one side?

Can you get teachers to put aside their defensiveness about what they do and how they do it?

Can you get varied lineages to work together in an atmosphere of mutual respect and growth?

Can you guarentee that "wannabees" with inflated paper won't be exposed when they get out on the mat?

Gotta face it, guy, most of the people who pass for leadership are big talkers when it comes to how things "ought to be" but peter out quick when they are expected to act as leaders. Too bad really. But if its any help at all you can always use the

SIMS LITMUS TEST OF LEADERSHIP.

"Think up a challenge and see if the leadership candidate will accept the challenge with all costs out of his own pocket and with no discernable gain or reward to himself personally."

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[shadow warrior]

Bruce:

I know there are a few Hapkido Instructors who really do love the art. Kevin Sogor and I among others threw this idea around last year. Maybe I am a bit optomistic..there have to be more..a Network has a co-operative, beneficial conotation..rather than a centralized power structure across oceans and cultures.

True leaders take calculated risks when the benefits are interesting..a sum can be much more than the individual parts..depends on the type of math..

Don't get me wrong, I know that Hapkido does attract some VERY INDEPENDENT individuals!!

Keith Stewart

[glad2bhere]

(My apologies to the webmaster for the misdirected post./ BS)

>Dear Keith:
>
>Don't get me wrong. I think the idea is a great one. Look at what Master
>JR West does down in Mississippi--- twice a year. Its possible to Network
>people together and discount the need for politics. My position is that in
>order to make it work and overcome longterm obstacles and resistance, it
>is a long, slow process, perhaps even measured a single member at a time.
>The bond needs to be a focus on the good of the art, long term training
>commitments, a reasonable indifference to the profit motive and a carefree
>willingness to give until it hurts. Such people are just not kicking in
>the door looking for a Network to connect with. Now, speaking for myself,
>I have a lot to give the right group of people, and I am not shy about
>sharing anything that will help other people along. But I have to tell you
>that after years of offering my services, most often free of charge,
>paying my own fare to seminars that I teach, buying my own research
>materials, publishing books and making tapes, I am coming dangerously
>close to being burned-out after connecting with just one-too-many
>wannabees. If ever a Network gets going, such as what we are talking about
>here, my sense is that it will be more informal than formal, and that
>people will cooperate among the group members because it makes them feel
>good to do it, rather than because so-&-so is a "member" and deserves
>everybodys' support. FWIW.
>
>Best Wishes,
>
>Bruce
>

[rana_hapkido_panama2002]

To you and Danielle, be blessed and welcome to the new commer to your family. I am Ramon Navarro, HapKiDo teacher from the country of Panama. My hope to you both is that it he/she be very healthy; congrats !!!

HAP



Disco,

The list you received from Dr. Hackworth is accurate. Oh Se Lim will be at his school this month should you have any questions for him. All KHF members are invited to attend this event, and indeed are expected to participate. I have heard that Mr. Bae will be present as well, who is a subordinate to Oh Se Lim, the President.


I may or may not be present because I just found out that I'm about to be a pappy, so that changes the situation for me. Danielle has no family here, so I will not leave her here to her own devices.

[Disco]

Well, I see where all the hoopla and pre-stake burning rhetoric has disappeared in the KHF/Mr H saga. So the bottom line on all this was what? He is still doing business as usual, so apparently no charges were filed. He now belongs to another/different KHF organization, which welcomed him with open arms. Judging from some of the posts from the KHF site, not that long ago, smack down is still ongoing, but coming from his camp. Reportedly filing some sort of legal papers to road block coming into this country against some Hapkido Masters from overseas.

Granted, none of this effects many of us on a personal level. We were not the ones allegedly cheated and lied to. But this was brought to a public forum for all to see and analyze and comment on. Now it seems that it's out of sight out of mind, on to other topics. This is not the solution to the reported problem. You do realize that if those of you who are affected and have voiced your disgust and vented your rage to the rest of us, if you refuse to not follow thru or at the very least attempt to do what is called for, then your own personal credibility will be undermined in many peoples eyes. I forget who penned the phrase, "Evil succeeds when Good Men do Nothing", but he was on the money.
:asian:

[glad2bhere]

Dear Disco:

I hate to say this but I think the earlier stuff with all the rowdy name-calling and finger-pointing was the easy part. It now remains for people to continue to be vigilant and constant and I am afraid that Americans are not well-known for either. I wouldn't exactly call it "outta sight; outta mind", but more like "so whats' next?" Seems like we Americans are always looking for novelty and when the novelty wears off in one place we head in some new direction. Con artists depend on this aspect of human nature.

As far as being accepted to a new organization, I am not sure that it has happened yet but probably will. This new guy, Park, seems hot to build an organization and a rep. The best thing he has to offer is validation by a jen-u-wine Korean national. What does he care what the round-eyes do to each other as long as he gets his cut, right? In fact, what do ANY of these players care as long as they can continue to market illusion for cash. Its not like you are going to see a whole bunch of these bozo-s at the up-coming camp in June putting their skills to the test. On the other hand, we have a list of 21 questions for which these turkeys are accountable. Maybe we need to keep those handy.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

Well Bruce, it's been a while since anything or anybody has posted on this thread. Even from the other sites, this is a dead issue. Everybody seems to be totally involved with the up coming KHF seminar (?). I know, we have discussed this before. I guess it's just me, I just can't see spending that kind of money, when you compare it to the Mississippi gathering, which was less than 1/3 the price. I'm Scotch/Irish, so I'm cheap but I will drink if you buy. :uhyeah: I believe the guys in charge locally now, Mr. Duque and Mr Whalen, are standup people and have the best of intentions. It's the people behind them that looks to still be in the direction of business as usual. But that is just my opinion, I have been wrong now and again though. I would like to see somebody answer the open question I put forth on the other site though. Don't think I'll hold my breath while waiting.

Take Care :asian:

[glad2bhere]

Dear Disco:

I know what you mean. I suppose I DO take a little different view of these things. I remember how bitter I was when GM Myung tossed me out of the WHF a few years back. I couldn't know that he would take me back in a few years later and was pretty pissed-off about all that I had done for the organization and for YMK Hapkido. I think thats why its so easy to understand peoples' feelings of betrayal with this whole Florida thing. Anyhow, it was some time later and I stumbled upon Master West, quite by accident. I am not sure he will ever know what a service he did with just extending some tolerance and support. He's quite a man, and thats one of the reasons he'll have to put up with me using "master" where he' concerned, despite the fact that he personally really hates that. And to be honest, I have come to feel much the same about Master Timmerman, who likewise has given a whole lot more than I think he has gotten sometimes. He also is just going to have to suffer being addressed as "master Timmerman", like it or not.

Now, the reason I share all of that is that these people have put their actions where their mouths are, and since imitation is the sincerest form of compliment, I feel constrained to do the same thing. As much bitching as I have done about organizations and leadership, when its my turn at the front of the line I think I need to quit talking and start doing. Honestly, I don't know WHERE this KHF thing is gonna go, but if I can pitch-in and help turn a lemon into lemonade maybe there are a whole lot of people who can be helped. If this up-coming event comes off HALF as well as I think it will I can see a few things coming out of it. Heres a couple of fantasies.....

1.) Regional testing each year at pre-specified times and at pre-specified locations.

2.) In counterpoint to the testings and perhaps 6 months off the sceduled test would be a regional Seminar to examine material for the up coming test.

3.) Each Dan rank would have specified criteria unique to that particular rank.

4.) 3 Times a year, a clinic in Hapkido or Hapkido weapons would be conducted, and the content would be consistent with uniform testing and training guidelines.

5.) Finally, I hope that if these things happen with this level of frequncy that we can figure some way to keep the cost down. I am not talking about just keeping down the cost of the event, but also off-setting the cost of coming in from out of town and staying in a strange area for a few days. Sometimes I think its not just the cost of the event but the meals, hotels and local transport that can be daunting for people.

Anyhow, I understand what you are saying. I hope we are looking at a major change in the wind. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

Bruce, I like your fantasies. I have no problems with supporting the right agenda and the right people who are willing to serve the greater good. The only real problem I have, is paying thru the nose for any and all of the services this organization offers.

If you do attend the June festivities, perhaps you can set aside a few hours and we can visit. I'm about an hour or so south in the Tampa area.

Mike

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

And I think that "paying through the nose" is the flip-side of this.

Meaning no disrespect to GM Myung and the WHF I know that one place that I have had serious differences with him has been on the matter of compensated services. Its not that I dispute being compensated for performing a service. Rather I take issue when each and every interaction with him became a matter commerce. We are talking about a person whose family is independently wealthy back in Korea so its not as though he HAD to charge for his services. In fairness, though, one would expect him to ask some compensation for his time and efforts. Still, a single trip to the Midwest (Chicago area) included RT air-fare, his lodging for the weekend, wining and dining, and transport. Later he began to ask for a set "honorarium" of some $700US. Now, when you are talking about a core WHF cadre of some 30-40 people doing this 3-4 times a year things begin to add-up fast! And we have not even gotten to the place of discussing advertising and promotion expenses, cost of the facility as well as time and energy expended. My personal concern was that in repeatedly doing these promotions in this way no thought was taken for maintaining a base of interested NEW practitioners who might still be in the stages of trying to make decisions about how to use their disposable income. People who are reading this who are KMA practitioners with families, with children, with domestic overhead to consider will know what I am talking about.

I am not sure what the answer is, except to say that perhaps there needs to be a more moderate approach to activities. Instead of four tiny events, or one big yearly event, maybe the answer is 2 or 3 moderate events. Maybe the cost needs to be shared between the host entity and the visiting entities.
Maybe the goals of an event need to be less generalized (IE. "Introduction to Hapkido", "will focus on Ke-bon-su") and be more grade specific (IE. "will focus exclusively on 1st and Second Dan requirements"). Perhaps another alternative is to have larger admissions fees but for an entire school regardless of the number of participants. I don't know. I only know what has NOT worked in the past and the result is that the art--- not the organization suffers for it.

As far as getting together in Tampa I think it would all depend on how intense this experience turns out to be. It sounds like a great idea, though.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

Bruce, your illustration of costs should open some peoples eyes. We have discussed this issue on another site, but I will add it to this thread, as it ties in with what we are now discussing. It's nice that the KHF is wanting to open it's arms - so to speak, with inviting everyone to this seminar. But the question is, is this really a seminar? From the offered text from KHF officials, it's a Dan testing and Masters course. They will undergo pre-testing evaluations, while at the same time going thru the required KHF curriculum. As outsiders, we will be able to interface only with the given agenda. Granted, people would/should be able to learn something, but it's not a seminar in the text of being able to share and expand, like the Mississippi gathering. I personally can't see spending that kind of money, to in essence meet and greet other Hapkidoin. I just think that this could be adjusted to where the KHF people do their thing and then have an open seminar for everybody else at a more reasonable cost.

If you decide to come down in June, give me a shout and I'll send you my number. If you should find the time, just give us a ring and we can get together.

Mike

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

I think I follow what you are saying. Unless I miss my guess I think the issue is in the definition and practice of the term "seminar". I know at Master Wests' events the opportunity is much greater for dialogue and that those opportunities occur at many levels from informal chatting between classes, infrequent exchanges on the mat, and, of course, those get-togethers over food and drink after the daily training is done. When I compare these with the WHF seminars, for instance, I can imagine that maybe GM Myung would LIKE to have such an experience, but in practice it was less a "seminar" in the Western sense, and more of an instructional intensive. There was little or not talking on the mat, and not a whole lot of kibbutzing around the perifery of the mat. People were usually so dogged at the end of the day there wasn't a lot of motivation for going out and hoisting a few. Personally I think if people went to the typical American practitioner and invited them to come to an "intensive" it would probably daunt many of them.

Another point that comes to mind is the variance in material. By this I mean that as I write my books on Hapkido, YMK Hapkido is ever a constant guide. However, to write about techniques so as to have as broad an application as possible I have had to step-around some of the more specialized moves and concepts. I think the view of this seminar is more focused on giving the KHF take on Hapkido arts and in that way it is undoubtedly intended to serve a kind of unifying theme. I'm not sure I would call it a recruitment effort as I don't hear that in any of what people are communicating about it and its content. Rather, I get the impression its a mending process for members of the Hapkido community who want to participate. After so many different injuries to the community by that person in Florida including mixed-messages, misrepresentations and some pretty big "whoppers", maybe the idea is to take a moment out and reassert what the KHF is about. I don't know; I'm just spit-balling now. For me I still look at it as a invitation to a challenge and an opportunity to contribute to a worthwhile effort.

BTW: Other than yourself, are there others in the Tampa area who have been impacted by all of this? Sometimes I wonder how much what we say here is followed by people lurking in the background, ys know?

As we get closer to the June event maybe we can make some plans to at least make contact, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Disco]

Nobody that I know personally has been affected by the proceedings. I'm just an opinionated observer myself. But what I have gained from all this is a great awakening on what has/is going on within the world of martial arts, along with the opportunity to talk and meet some new brothers in the arts. I had lunch last week with Jeff Cook from Budoseek, a fine gentleman. By all means, as the June time frame draws near we should stay in touch. Who knows, mabey I'll get a piece of the lottery and show up at the Ocala gathering. :lol: