WTF/KUKKIWON TKD'ists

[Disco]

Open question for all the TKD with Kukkiwon certification.

With the ruling that the Kukkiwon/WTF has no authority over American TKD anymore, does or will this affect your ranking certification? As it stands right now, anybody with a TKD certificate of rank can attempt competition. Prior to this ruling, you had to have Kukkiwon certification. On a similar note, it has been stated that Kukkiwon certification only represents Martial Sport and not a Martial Art. Where do you think this leaves all of us that have put in the time and training in TKD?:confused:

[Mithios]

The U.S.O.C. Is not going to vote till the middle of sept. As far as N.G.B. status of the U.S.T.U. Is this what you mean or did i miss something ?? can a person compete in a u.s.t.u. or w.t.f. sanctioned event without KUKKIWON certification now ? Or P.A.T.U. ? They have never needed it for the A.A.U. route, as far as i know. I heard something about all of this, but i did not know if it was officially changed or not. MITHIOS

[Disco]

I'm trying to retrace my steps and find the information. It was on one of the many web sites I reviewed while surfing. It had to do with the legal issue of American athletes not being under constraints from foreign empowerment. In laymens terms, the WTF/Kukkiwon cannot dictate that American athletes must be sanctioned by them. This is why the USTU now has it's own Dan Certification program, along with the AAU. When the USOC meets, it's just to determine who will be the NGB. It has nothing to do with the legal aspect of foreign control. Both organizations will grandfather Kukkiwon holders. The USTU fee is $50, I think the AAU is higher. With this unfolding, it makes me wonder if Kukkiwon certification is/will be worth anything anymore. Since there controlling influence has been removed.

[MountainSage]

Anytime we can be governed by our own it is a good thing. There was no inherit advantage to have a dan rank coming from Korea, other than, ego. We, as TKD practitioneer, have a better chance to mold the future of TKD in the US now. Many of the McDojang I have seen on the internet have been run by arrogant Koreans with an axe to grind (personal opinion).

Mountain Sage

[Disco]

No argument here, I agree 100%. They (Koreans) did this to themselves, all after the almighty dollar. Some are now trying (smurk and chuckle:p ) to propose going in the other direction. They have formed new organization(s) that state they want to get back to the true martial arts concepts. Only problem is that it's the same crew that got us here in the first place. The USTU is undergoing major revamping due to lots of fraud and illegal doings. Not my words, it's all over the infonets. Just for info, it's not only TKD. Hapkido seems to be going through similar transformations. This kind of ties into several other threads, by asking about credability of certifications and is belonging to an organization really worth it. Here were talking about the "Top of the Mountain" so to speak and the Mountain is crumbling down.

[karatekid1975]

My school is affiliated with U.S.T.U. So I was confused :confused: So I looked here: http://www.ustu.org/ . Click on News. It's there.

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by Disco
No argument here, I agree 100%. They (Koreans) did this to themselves, all after the almighty dollar. Some are now trying (smurk and chuckle:p ) to propose going in the other direction. They have formed new organization(s) that state they want to get back to the true martial arts concepts. Only problem is that it's the same crew that got us here in the first place. The USTU is undergoing major revamping due to lots of fraud and illegal doings. Not my words, it's all over the infonets. Just for info, it's not only TKD. Hapkido seems to be going through similar transformations. This kind of ties into several other threads, by asking about credability of certifications and is belonging to an organization really worth it. Here were talking about the "Top of the Mountain" so to speak and the Mountain is crumbling down.

And it's because of these friggin' shenanigans that my beloved martial art has garnered such a bad reputation. Many people in the MA world think that TKD is just a joke as a MA. And that takes away so much from the serious, dedicated and hard working practitioners of Taekwondo... :shrug:

As unbelieveable as it may sound, not all of the TKD practitioners here in the States earned their rank through a MC Dojang belt mill. Some, unfortunately yes did advance this way, but not all TKDists...

[MountainSage]

I've stated before I firmly believe that most of the TKD people, WTF or ITF, on this forum are pretty close in our believe system as it applies to MA of TKD. I look at this situation as a challenge to show the Koreans that we can play their game better than they can when the rules are fair and equally applied.

Mountain Sage

[Disco]

The problem is that they won't/don't play "fair". They are in control of all the major "legit"? organizations, with the exception of the AAU. As far as the AAU and their Dan Rankings go, their fee's for re-certification from WTF / ITF start at $100 and increase $50+ for each Dan Grade. I did have a modicum of respect for them but not now. Their no better than what we already have, their money hungry too. There are lots of very good, dedicated TKD people out there that are just going to get hosed for playing by the rules. What we NEED is an American Organization commited only to TKD and it's students and with NOOOOOOO AFFILIATION to Korea. We don't need the Korean's or their lackeys making it difficult for the majority of us to advance and grow in the art we have chosen to practice. There are web sites / info sites out there now, running down anybody and anything not affiliated with the master Korean agenda. :moon: OK, I've ranted enough. There is truth to the saying, "what you don't know won't hurt you", or something to that affect. If I did'nt go around looking for information, I never would have stumbled on all this and would be blissfully ignorant, content with just trying to accomplish a full split:D

[MountainSage]

Disco,
I wouldn't condem all the Korean TKD, just the Kukkiwon TKD. I believe there is an organization, Korean Taekwondo Assocation, which has a US organization that is not sports based, I'll scare up the website. This group would still have some Korean control, but I don't believe there wouldn't be quite the politics. I think the head of the group is American born, not of Korean descedant. As a colored belt, I will lay the problem at the feet of the US TKD Masters at this time.

Mountain Sage

[MountainSage]

Disco and others,
Here's a site that has some interesting opinions about TKD and the present situation. www.yudofederation.com/WhereWeStandon.htm
Worth a look and read.

Mountain Sage

[karatekid1975]

To me, I don't care where my dan rank will come from. I know I'm not at a Mcdojang. My instructor isn't in it for the buck, and I know we learn the martial art, not sport. I could care less what people think. I know when the time comes that I will, to the best of my abilities, earn my 1st dan. I train hard, always work on technique, and ask a lot of questions. I might be annoying at times, but who cares. Deal with it.

Sorry for the rant. I just don't concern myself with politics. I just train, because I like my dojang and what the instructor teaches.

[Disco]

Yes the KTA is the organization that states they are for non-sport TKD. The problem with the KTA is that they will not recognize Kukkiwon certifications. The site that you listed is one of the ones I was talking about. They want you to join their organizations and get their certifications after starting over and learning their particular system/style. Their all HQ'd in Korea with U.S. links that answer to Korea. Back to square one, just a different management team. There are some major happinings going on with some of the more recognized Korean organizations. During this period of shift and realignment, lots of people , in my opinion, are being scared and manipulated into acting to join these organizations under theguise that they will safeguard their training with a true Martial ARTS organization. All there doing is just paying twice for what they already have.

[Mithios]

[Gizmo]

AFAIK, the Korean Taekwondo Association is the WTF's NGB for Korea just the same way the USTU is (or already was?) for the US. They do NOT issue dan certification. I remember a story of an American group claiming to issue KTA certificates, but it turned out that they were fake ones. So, buyer beware!

For me personally it's more important who was one's teacher and examiner than what organisation appears on the certificate. I hold 3rd Dan Kukkiwon but decided to test for 4th Dan through an independent federation as the Kukkiwon tests hosted here are a joke (there is only one KKW examiner in my country). I don't really feel that my non-KKW 4th Dan is worse in any way than a KKW one - it took several years and a good test to get it, plus the people on the board were the one I know and respect as my seniors. I won't be participating in the Olympics, I don't intend to be a WTF International Referee and no KKW 4th Dans can promote people to KKW Dans in my country. So, what's the point?

Best regards

Gizmo

[MountainSage]

Disco,
It appears then, the solution is to organize a US based TKD organization that has martial art emphasis with a sport option. Want to be the Leader?:D

Mountain Sage

[Disco]

Yes, a TRUE AMERICAN organization would be the answer. But in all honesty, with human nature being what it is, it would proably turn to crap also. If I ran it, you could bet your bottom dollar that it most likely would'nt get very big. I suck at politics and would most likely even get the U.N. to declare war on us:p

I started this thread to get opinions and wound up soapboxing :soapbox: My apology:drinkbeer

And karatekid is right: Should'nt matter where your ranking comes from if your training is good and you believe in yourself. :cool:

[karatekid1975]

Thanks, Disco :)

[MountainSage]

DISCO FOR TKD GOD!:D

[Disco]

Nah!..... But Super Supreme GrandPooBa Exultancy I could deal with......:mst: :lol:

[Mithios]

I looked at the yudo site ! It has a # of mix up's and miss- information ! Also the k.t.a. is the n.g.b. for sport T.K.D. in korea.Just like the u.s.t.u. in the U.S. They are branches of kukkiwon!! Wonder were they get there info?? Oh well . Do you still have to have a kukki certificate to compete in w.t.f. sanctioned event's ?? It seem's you still do . If that is the case nothing has really changed ! Just my opinion ! MITHIOS

[Kodanjaclay]

No NGB is a branch of Kukkiwon. They are duly authorized affiliates of Kukkiwon. There is a major legal distinction there.

The change does not apply to foreign Kukkiwon events. It applies to domestic events and the Olympics. An event for example in say South Africa, would not be subject to the provisions of US Federal Law.

I suspect that in the long run group such as USTW, USNTA and others will gain more power and prestige. In the last 20 years, I have seen alot of changes. These changes now are interesting. I sincerely believe in TKD reform, but the only way it will happen is by banding together. The problem then becomes the power vaccuum left. Someone, or something, must replace it, and experience has shown us that the cure is sometimes worse than the disease.

[Disco]

To participate in sanctioned events either USTU or AAU, you don't need a Kukkiwon Certification. But you must however, be a member of the organization that is hosting the event. So they got you coming and going. In the U.S. you don't need Kukkiwon certification anymore to compete.

[Mithios]

Thank's Mr. Clay, I meant afilliate but i typed branch for some reason !! Disco, info apreciated ! What i was getting at with w.t.f. sanctioned event's world wide is that a person has to have a kukkiwon cert. to compete, but the w.t.f. and kukkiwon are supose to be seperate ! I guess i am thinking to far ahead ! i tend to do that ! Thing's in the U.S. are not even settled yet. Thank's MIHIOS

[ThuNder_FoOt]

How does this shift in power affect the Olympic committee, and those participating in Olympic events?

[MountainSage]

I wouldn't think it would change the Olympic committee at all. This change would only effect US competitiors trying out for the US team. The change should increase the number of people that can qualify to compete in the selection tournaments. Another change is that the big stick Korea has had is shortened a little bit.

Mountain Sage

[Disco]

The USOC membership & credentials committee has stated that at the USOC's meeting in mid Oct., that they will recommend that the USTU's charter be revoked. Information was obtained from the AAU web site.

[MountainSage]

So, it a good or bad thing to have the charter revoked?


Mountainsage

[Disco]

From everybody I've talked with and read responses on forums, the majority feels the USTU totally has outlived their usefullness. In addition, all the wrongdoings that has been alledged to have taken place over the years does/has not sat well with all concerned.

[allan]

KTA and USTU are members or NGB's of WTF. You cannot be affiliated with the Kukkiwon. Kukkiwon is about the technical aspekt of Taekwondo.

You don't need to be a member og USTU or any other NGB of WTF to get a Kukkiwon dan certifikat. You just need someone who Kukkiwon recognizes as someone who is allowed to promote you according to Kukkiwons rules & regulations.

If you want to know what Kukkiwon and WTF is about then read the following links:

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/simsa_eng1.asp?div=5

http://www.wtf.org/r&r/R_r/rules1.htm

[Kodanjaclay]

The USTU may not be the NGB much longer. I believe that designation goe up to vote by the USOC on the 25th of this month. No one can affiliate with Kukkiwon. Kukkiwon is an academy, basically. No non-country may affiliate with the WTF unless there is a situation in which there is not an NGB, which maintains an active membership of X number of KKW certified yudanja. The X is relative to the overall population size.