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Thread: Should A Fist Be Considered A Deadly Weapon?

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    Re: Should A Fist Be Considered A Deadly Weapon?

    Easy there Bill

    I'm actually not that far off from your opinion. I also don't think there is a heck of a lot of difference in hitting someone 20 to 30 times with your fist and once with an object. The intent and the consequence are the same. That was my main point. If the law is unclear then it needs to be updated and/or clarified. The sentence delivered needs to take into the man's intent and the result of that intent. Concentrating on whether a fist is a deadly weapon or falls into some other category loses the spirit and purpose of law, in my opinion.

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    Aggregated assault and domestic violence charges would have been more appropriate. Not that I have any sympathy for the guy.

    But why is he getting a worse sentence than, say, Chris brown.

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    Re: Should A Fist Be Considered A Deadly Weapon?

    in my opinion, NO a fist should not be considered a deadly weapon for purposes of law. Does this mean that a fist can not be deadly? NO, not at all, but a "deadly weapon" should be an inanimate object. any thing from a Machine gun or heavy artillery such as a 155 mm cannon or a simple stick or knife or even a rock. But It should not be a body part, as fists or knees or elbows or feet. For one thing, not every ones fists or feet or what have you are the same, and definitions under law must treat that thing always the same way it seems to me. so once again, NO a fist is not a "deadly weapon".
    unarmed hand to hand fighting has NOT changed through the ages; only the name changes, and it has only one rule: do it first, do it fast, do it dirtiest. -- Robert A. Heinlien

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    Re: Should A Fist Be Considered A Deadly Weapon?

    The problem is that people get their heads around the idea of guilt and punishment, and fail to grasp the actual law itself.

    Case in point; a man is stopped riding a horse on the highway. He's drunk. Initially charged with DUI, he beat the charge because the state DUI law says that DUI means driving a 'motor vehicle' on public roads while intoxicated. He was on public roads, he was intoxicated, but is a horse a motor vehicle? It is not.

    He was still a threat to others. He still was drunk. He could have caused an accident and people could have been killed. I agree with all of that. But you can't make believe that a horse is a motor vehicle to assuage your sense of justice. If there is a big problem with people riding horses drunk on the roads, then the government should consider changing the legal definition of DUI in that state to include horses.

    Same thing here. A fist is not a 'deadly weapon' by state law because it does not meet the definition of one in the law itself. Regardless of how a person uses it or how dangerous it might be, a fist is not a baseball bat or a club or a knife or a gun. Just like a horse is not a motor vehicle.

    FYI, police and judges have, at various times, tried to argue that a horse is a motor vehicle, but ultimately the charges did not stick.
    DISCLAIMER: I am a student of martial arts. I am not an authority on the subject. My views and opinions are my own and do not reflect the views or opinions of my sensei, my dojo, or my style of martial arts. If you have an issue with my views, opinions, or anything I've said or done, please contact me directly. Thank you.

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    Re: Should A Fist Be Considered A Deadly Weapon?

    In Colorado, a bicycle is specifically defined as a vehicle so DUI laws apply. There is also a specific law against riding an animal while intoxicated, so although it's not actually a DUI, you can effectively get a DUI while riding a horse.

    The same should apply to fists. They're not deadly weapons in the legal sense, and there are abundant laws already addressing the issue of striking with various body parts.
    Worn out, tired old fat man. Please be gentle.

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    Re: Should A Fist Be Considered A Deadly Weapon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Dog View Post
    In Colorado, a bicycle is specifically defined as a vehicle so DUI laws apply. There is also a specific law against riding an animal while intoxicated, so although it's not actually a DUI, you can effectively get a DUI while riding a horse.

    The same should apply to fists. They're not deadly weapons in the legal sense, and there are abundant laws already addressing the issue of striking with various body parts.
    In NYS a bike is a vehicle until the rider's feet touch the ground...then the rider magically becomes a pedestrian and the bike is no longer a vehicle.
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    Re: Should A Fist Be Considered A Deadly Weapon?

    If you are into precedents.

    In 19th century France, a closed fist was considered a deadly weapon and thus combatants would kick or strike each other with an open-palmed slap, possibly influencing the French martial art Savate.
    I wonder then, if you walk around with your hands in your pockets, could you be charged with carrying a concealed weapon?
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    Re: Should A Fist Be Considered A Deadly Weapon?

    Then I found this.


    Boxers are required to register their hands as "lethal weapons." = Not true.

    Research has failed to reveal any statutory, regulatory or other requirement that boxers -- or anyone skilled in martial arts -- "register" their hands or any other body part as "lethal weapons" in the U.S., UKoGBaNI, Canada, or any other common law nation. However, a criminal defendant's experience in boxing, karate, or other forms of hand-to-hand combat may be relevant to determining various legal issues.

    First, in the United States at least, the question of whether hands (or other body parts) of a boxer, martial artist or any other person even qualifies as a "deadly" or "lethal" weapon depends largely upon how "deadly weapon," "lethal weapon," or "deadly force" is defined (usually by statute, which is then interpreted by the courts). _See,_ _e.g.,_ Vitauts M. Gulbis, "Parts of the Human Body, Other Than Feet, as Deadly or Dangerous Weapons for Purposes of Statutes Aggravating Offenses Such as Assault and Robbery," 8 A.L.R.4th 1268 (1981 and supplements); Christpher Vaeth, "Kicking as Aggravated Assault, or Assault With Dangerous or Deadly Weapon," 19 A.L.R.5th 823 (1995 and supplements). Most statutes have been interpreted to require an object external to the human body before a "deadly weapon" element can be met. For example, in _Minnesota v. Bastin_, 572 N.W.2d 281 (Minn. 1997), the Minnesota Supreme Court overruled the trial court's conclusion that the left fist of the defendant, a former licensed professional prize fighter, was a "deadly weapon."

    Some courts in the United States have concluded, however, that a criminal defendant's experience in boxing or martial arts should be considered when deciding whether s/he possessed a required intent to cause harm. For instance, in _Trujillo v. State_, 750 P.2d 1334 (Wyo. 1988), the Wyoming Supreme Court found that there was sufficient evidence to support the defendant's conviction for aggravated assault after he punched someone in the head. His history as a trained boxer was one bit of evidence supporting the jury's findings on his mental state. Likewise, in _In the Matter of the Welfare of D.S.F._, 416 N.W.2d 772 (Minn. App. 1988), the Minnesota Court of Appeals held that there was sufficient evidence to conclude that the actions of the defendant, who had "substantial experience in karate," were sufficient to demonstrate his knowledge that he was hitting the victim with sufficient force to break the victim's jaw.

    Similarly, a criminal defendant's boxing or martial arts experience may be relevant to determining the validity of a self-defense claim. For instance, in _Idaho v. Babbit_, 120 Idaho 337, 815 P.2d 1077 (Idaho App. 1991), the defendant shot the victim and claimed self-defense. The trial court admitted evidence regarding the defendant's past training and experience as a boxer, concluding that it was relevant to a determination of whether the defendant truly believed it was necessary to shoot the victim in order to protect himself and others. The Idaho Court of Appeals affirmed.

    Documented: A criminal defendant's experience in boxing or the martial arts may be relevant to deciding whether the elements of a criminal offense have been proven.
    i can only attribute this work to a guy called "Kickballs" on another forum.
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    Re: Should A Fist Be Considered A Deadly Weapon?

    Quote Originally Posted by K-man View Post
    Then I found this.


    i can only attribute this work to a guy called "Kickballs" on another forum.
    I agree with everything Mister Kickballs said.
    DISCLAIMER: I am a student of martial arts. I am not an authority on the subject. My views and opinions are my own and do not reflect the views or opinions of my sensei, my dojo, or my style of martial arts. If you have an issue with my views, opinions, or anything I've said or done, please contact me directly. Thank you.

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    Re: Should A Fist Be Considered A Deadly Weapon?

    Yeah I would consider a fist a dangerous weapon. One hard punch to the temple and you could be dead.

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    Re: Should A Fist Be Considered A Deadly Weapon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopper22 View Post
    Yeah I would consider a fist a dangerous weapon. One hard punch to the temple and you could be dead.
    So, would you also consider hands as deadly weapons because even an untrained person could choke or strangle someone?
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    Mushi Mushi Re: Should A Fist Be Considered A Deadly Weapon?

    One of the things I've taught my students, particularly in DT classes is that death has occurred from being hit in the head with a closed fist even when gloves and head gear are worn. Additionally, death or great bodily harm can occur from a clenched fist strike to the head (or open hand for that matter) and the person goes to the ground and strikes their head.

    Attacker/victim factors need to be taken into consideration on a case-by-case basis.

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    Re: Should A Fist Be Considered A Deadly Weapon?

    in my state a charge of "2nd degree assault" normally is used when a weapon is used and crippling if not killing was intended. But that charge does not REQUIRE a weapon be used, and they show an indifference to the value of life. its good for a minimum sentence of 10 years in prison. ( and NO you do not get minimum security prison for that, more likely Maximum security.. very hard time I understand.)
    unarmed hand to hand fighting has NOT changed through the ages; only the name changes, and it has only one rule: do it first, do it fast, do it dirtiest. -- Robert A. Heinlien

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