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Thread: Arts of the white man and the native american

  1. #31
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    Re: Arts of the white man and the native american

    Quote Originally Posted by Touch Of Death View Post
    They used sticks, stones, and arrows.
    So?

    If they fought hand to hand, the idea was to take your enemy off his feet
    The same as grappling; as a way to supplement and enhance weapon work, or when a weapon was not available.

    not square off for the entertainment of others.
    Sean
    I never claimed that they did.
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    Re: Arts of the white man and the native american

    Quote Originally Posted by Touch Of Death View Post
    I understand how to not hurt my hand when punching, but would an entire tribe spend a lot of time on it?
    Sean
    Who said "a lot of time?" The evidence indicates that empty handed punching was what you did if you did if you didn't have a weapon or as a supplement to the weapon already in hand, much like wrestling.

    This isn't rocket surgery.
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    Re: Arts of the white man and the native american

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Dismukes View Post
    Leaving aside the rest of the post, I just wanted to point out that to the best of my knowledge armored European knights did not use boxing or any other form of fist fighting in combat. Punching an armored opponent just doesn't work. They did have close quarters grappling techniques for putting an opponent on the ground.
    Keep in mind that if you were to punch an armored opponent you would probably be wearing a metal gauntlet so it would have some effect. And besides, not all your opponents wore metal armor. The common foot soldier would usually just be wearing leather.

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    Re: Arts of the white man and the native american

    Quote Originally Posted by Touch Of Death View Post
    That looked like kenpo to me.
    That's because, what I know of Adrian "chief" Roman, he incorporated Kempo into native american fighting systems.

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    Re: Arts of the white man and the native american

    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    Who said "a lot of time?" The evidence indicates that empty handed punching was what you did if you did if you didn't have a weapon or as a supplement to the weapon already in hand, much like wrestling.

    This isn't rocket surgery.
    I think more rockets die than you think. LOL
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    Re: Arts of the white man and the native american

    Quote Originally Posted by Touch Of Death View Post
    I think more rockets die than you think. LOL
    OK then, so what is the basis for your conclusions?
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    Re: Arts of the white man and the native american

    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    OK then, so what is the basis for your conclusions?
    I think we watch too many movies, and have a very small filter in which we view history. The punch as we know it is a specialization. Your a martial artist... go ask you non martial art friends to punch you in the stomach as hard as they can. It is great fun watching them hut their hand, but then you have trust issues.
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    Re: Arts of the white man and the native american

    Quote Originally Posted by Touch Of Death View Post
    I think we watch too many movies, and have a very small filter in which we view history. The punch as we know it is a specialization. Your a martial artist... go ask you non martial art friends to punch you in the stomach as hard as they can. It is great fun watching them hut their hand, but then you have trust issues.
    I don't think that answers my question, unless you're answer is, "I base my conclusions upon movies."

    What is the basis for your conclusions?
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  9. #39
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    Re: Arts of the white man and the native american

    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    I don't think that answers my question, unless you're answer is, "I base my conclusions upon movies."

    What is the basis for your conclusions?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0blNVyXk5U To be honest, I was told this by one of my karate teachers, and his question to me was, why is something that is so hard to do well, so, common? I came up with, entertainment, and it seems a less dangerous way of stabbing (or jabbing) which is sort of a sexual thing, but who knows? The bottom line is that, punching occurred a lot less through human history than you have been led to believe. It is more likely you babied your hands, so that you might still hold a weapon.
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    Re: Arts of the white man and the native american

    Quote Originally Posted by PhotonGuy View Post
    Keep in mind that if you were to punch an armored opponent you would probably be wearing a metal gauntlet so it would have some effect. And besides, not all your opponents wore metal armor. The common foot soldier would usually just be wearing leather.
    Not necessarily. Medieval European? Maybe... but, though I don't have hard facts handy, I suspect that the run of the mill soldier wasn't wearing metal gauntlets. Native American? I'm pretty confident that they had hide gloves at best. I've never seen much showing that they had a lot of extensive metal use like that. Bone, leather, wooden armor? Sure.

    A standing, professional soldier class is something that it takes a certain level of both warfare and technology/cultural advancement to support. Otherwise, the culture just can't spare a few bodies from farming or hunting or other survival tasks just to stand around and be ready to fight. (Heck, in many of the cultures we think of as having them -- the folks whose primary role was fighter were really a minority and viewed as leadership, not the rank & file.)
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  11. #41
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    Re: Arts of the white man and the native american

    Quote Originally Posted by Touch Of Death View Post
    So you don't actually have any source for your conclusions on how native americans fought. I base my conclusions about how they fought upon first hand accounts, first person recounts, and oral histories. I came across most of them during my research on period Bowie and period Tomahawk technique and use. Most accounts give next to no information that is useful. However, accounts of native american combat which do include any sort of useful information will occasionally include words like, "punching and kicking." Most accounts of single-combat or dueling among or with native americans include accounts of grappling, wrestling, and "death grips." and may sometimes also include phrases such as "punching and kicking." Based upon these accounts and the well documented evolution of armed melee combat in other places, I have concluded that native american combat probably had a preference for using melee and ranged personal weapons but included strong elements of grappling, and sometimes included "punching and kicking" as supplements to the weapon work.

    To be honest, I was told this by one of my karate teachers, and his question to me was, why is something that is so hard to do well, so, common? I came up with, entertainment, and it seems a less dangerous way of stabbing (or jabbing) which is sort of a sexual thing, but who knows? The bottom line is that, punching occurred a lot less through human history than you have been led to believe. It is more likely you babied your hands, so that you might still hold a weapon.
    Perhaps you've made an unjustified assumption. You assume that the hand wasn't designed ("evolved," whatever) for punching, but, well, apparently some really smart Dr.s think maybe it was. Here are a couple of articles discussing the study.

    Evolved Fists or the Best Weapons at Hand? - Retort
    The evolution of the hand: Making a fist of it | The Economist
    Banned from Boxing! The forgotten grappling techniques of historic Pugilism
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  12. #42
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    Re: Arts of the white man and the native american

    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    So you don't actually have any source for your conclusions on how native americans fought. I base my conclusions about how they fought upon first hand accounts, first person recounts, and oral histories. I came across most of them during my research on period Bowie and period Tomahawk technique and use. Most accounts give next to no information that is useful. However, accounts of native american combat which do include any sort of useful information will occasionally include words like, "punching and kicking." Most accounts of single-combat or dueling among or with native americans include accounts of grappling, wrestling, and "death grips." and may sometimes also include phrases such as "punching and kicking." Based upon these accounts and the well documented evolution of armed melee combat in other places, I have concluded that native american combat probably had a preference for using melee and ranged personal weapons but included strong elements of grappling, and sometimes included "punching and kicking" as supplements to the weapon work.

    Perhaps you've made an unjustified assumption. You assume that the hand wasn't designed ("evolved," whatever) for punching, but, well, apparently some really smart Dr.s think maybe it was. Here are a couple of articles discussing the study.

    Evolved Fists or the Best Weapons at Hand? - Retort
    The evolution of the hand: Making a fist of it | The Economist
    Our hands have done nothing of the sort. I don't believe that for a second.
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    Re: Arts of the white man and the native american

    Quote Originally Posted by Touch Of Death View Post
    Our hands have done nothing of the sort. I don't believe that for a second.
    OK, now you're either just having a go at me for the fun of it, or, well, best to leave that unsaid.

    In either case, this is going nowhere. I've laid out evidence and described where I draw my conclusions from. You can either explain why that evidence is "wrong" or you can continue to ignore it. If you're just having some fun with me, then I don't have time for it today. If it's the alternative, then I definitely don't have time for it.
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    Re: Arts of the white man and the native american

    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    OK, now you're either just having a go at me for the fun of it, or, well, best to leave that unsaid.

    In either case, this is going nowhere. I've laid out evidence and described where I draw my conclusions from. You can either explain why that evidence is "wrong" or you can continue to ignore it. If you're just having some fun with me, then I don't have time for it today. If it's the alternative, then I definitely don't have time for it.
    If our hands evolved for thrusting, we would be born knowing how to thrust. It just doesn't follow that we would evolve for something we don't know how to do. Do you follow?
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    Re: Arts of the white man and the native american

    I can provide evidence that Aliens are controlling our minds, but it would still be false.
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