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Thread: Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

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    Yoshiyahu is offline 1,000 Post Club
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    Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

    I was woundering if Shaolin Snake style would be a good crossfit to Wing Chun?

    I don't mean the Wushu snake with alot flips and flying in the air. But the traditional Wudang or Shaolin Snake? I mean snake fighters have some pretty strong kung.


    Ninebird8 said:
    One of my two seniors in my Wudan Shaolin school, is a Bok Lum Snake style and is incredible. He can take a watermelon, and with a snake hand, go right through a watermelon and explode it.


    Qoute here: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71666

    Pressure Points: http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/accu.asp


    If you could do this with your thrusting fingers what would happen if you struck someone in Abadomen,kidneys,bladder(behind the back), pelvic bone,groin, dan tien or pressure points on the chest with this strike?

    Also striking the points on the body,neck and face with this force. Wouldn't this be useful against a person trying to mug you with a gun or knife? When your unarmed and afraid to run due to being stabbed or shot in the back?









    Center Line striking points!

    http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71666

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    profesormental is offline
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    Re: Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

    Greetings.

    I will not comment much on my thoughts on this.

    They are summarized in the following:

    There are better training methods that yield higher success rate skills than finger conditioning.

    Snake style is supposed to be about manipulation and control as to be able to hit the points (tien sueh or dim mak) better.

    Except if you want to tickle them, hitting them with fingers on the body will most probably hurt your hand. If you can reach them, why not just strike and/or control the attacker?

    I'm not much for stylized fighting methods, just for the benefits of the training, since most actually fight with San Da methods anyway...

    Enjoy.

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Re: Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

    You said if you strike their body with your fingers you would hurt your hand?


    Is there a way you could build up strength in your fingers and hands so you can endure striking the body with your fingers with out sustaining injury?

    Like bruce lee would thrust his fingers in gravel, Do push ups on his fingers and strike targets with his fingers?

    Is this something possible...Or has modern 2009 wing chun schools forgot about these training methods?


    Quote Originally Posted by profesormental View Post
    Greetings.

    I will not comment much on my thoughts on this.

    They are summarized in the following:

    There are better training methods that yield higher success rate skills than finger conditioning.

    Snake style is supposed to be about manipulation and control as to be able to hit the points (tien sueh or dim mak) better.

    Except if you want to tickle them, hitting them with fingers on the body will most probably hurt your hand. If you can reach them, why not just strike and/or control the attacker?

    I'm not much for stylized fighting methods, just for the benefits of the training, since most actually fight with San Da methods anyway...

    Enjoy.

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Re: Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

    Nope, I haven't forgotten.

    Yet when the gain is not worth the risk, I don't do it. I teach people that play music (including me), and hand/finger conditioning for those purposes has a high risk of injury vs. the benefits it brings.

    Iron Fist is much safer and takes a much less toll on the fingers.

    The joints can be seen as shock absorbers, and the fist has relatively big bones and less flexible joints than the fingers.

    A LOT of energy is dissipated in the joints, and the fingers have a lot of them.

    Conditioning them with finger pushups and lightly hitting targets is more than enough for most martial purposes. Remember that many old styles of conditioning didn't take into account that the warrior would see past 40 years of age.

    Thus I don't think it is worth it, except if you want to do demonstrations, yet I find ripping phonebooks in 2 a good enough demo!

    So just punch 'em or grab 'em. You'll deliver much more energy and momentum, have lower risk, an enjoy the effect more. Many aspects of Chin Na are grabs, not finger pokes. Enjoy it!

    Hope that helps.

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Yoshiyahu is offline 1,000 Post Club
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    Re: Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

    What about that one guy in his nineties who could do hand stands on two fingers? What long term damage did he sustain?


    Quote Originally Posted by profesormental View Post
    Nope, I haven't forgotten.

    Yet when the gain is not worth the risk, I don't do it. I teach people that play music (including me), and hand/finger conditioning for those purposes has a high risk of injury vs. the benefits it brings.

    Iron Fist is much safer and takes a much less toll on the fingers.

    The joints can be seen as shock absorbers, and the fist has relatively big bones and less flexible joints than the fingers.

    A LOT of energy is dissipated in the joints, and the fingers have a lot of them.

    Conditioning them with finger pushups and lightly hitting targets is more than enough for most martial purposes. Remember that many old styles of conditioning didn't take into account that the warrior would see past 40 years of age.

    Thus I don't think it is worth it, except if you want to do demonstrations, yet I find ripping phonebooks in 2 a good enough demo!

    So just punch 'em or grab 'em. You'll deliver much more energy and momentum, have lower risk, an enjoy the effect more. Many aspects of Chin Na are grabs, not finger pokes. Enjoy it!

    Hope that helps.

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Re: Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    What about that one guy in his nineties who could do hand stands on two fingers? What long term damage did he sustain?
    He has probably trained properly for 80 years and started training with highly skilled teachers whne he was very young

    You don't just jump into styles like this and start striking things with your fingers.... if you do...you WILL hurt your fingers severely
    .
    - If you train martial arts without training deep skill, you will arrive at old age with nothing - Di Guoyong
    - Nothing in this world is difficult, but thinking makes it seem so. Where there is true will, there is always a way. - Wú Chéng'ēn
    - One of the original Four Heroic Cynical Curmudgeons

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    Re: Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

    Very true...I love that response...Training properly for many years...thats right. Also you have guys in thier twenties who can spear hand fruits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xue Sheng View Post
    He has probably trained properly for 80 years and started training with highly skilled teachers whne he was very young

    You don't just jump into styles like this and start striking things with your fingers.... if you do...you WILL hurt your fingers severely

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    Re: Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    What about that one guy in his nineties who could do hand stands on two fingers? What long term damage did he sustain?
    I dunno--he was still able to hold his cigarette, right?

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    Re: Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

    Yeah... monk Hai Tank I believe...

    Did you see his fingers? Not very straight.

    If your strategy includes tactics with striking fingers, of course conditioning is essential.

    I adopted strategies and tactics that do not include finger strikes as major moves. My teachers have shied away from finger conditioning for the reasons I've proposed and several others.

    Fingers and hands biomechanically have preferences in the way they carry loads. I have decided to spend my time more on making these anatomically and physically determined movements even stronger that make my martial applications irresistible...

    than use my time in making a lower percentage strategy and tactic just half as good. And on top of that, if your destructive sequence is off, you will hit the guy with fruit crushing power and NOTHING will happen except turn or higher adrenaline in the attacker. (i.e. if the shield are up, the attacker can take quite a punch and kick... fingers, no problem!).

    Also, jabbing someone in the eyes requires NO conditioning to be debilitating. That is another story.

    I've decided to let the physical sciences and logic determine in what methods I choose to train in my limited time for maximal grains in martial skill.

    Thus I have reached the conclusions I have expressed before. I have no objection to the slaughter of fruits via finger mashing if you have a very effective strategy that uses it as an important tactic.

    Also, if you're into demonstrations if Iron body, then by all means, go for it! There are many demos I would like to have the time to train for!

    I also think that my argument for not training finger conditioning is valid, since I prioritize my training time to specific goals and objectives for me and my students...

    Optimization of movements thought the physical and mental sciences for maximal Kinesiological Output for Martial Applications (combat and sport) and lifelong extended and expanded Health and Well Being.

    Or something like that.

    Hope that helps.

    Juan M. Mercado
    Wing Chun Kuen Fat Si Fu
    Guadian Lions Martial Training School

    P.S. The fruit smashing finger style comments are all in good fun! No offense meant, just lightning the mood.

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    Re: Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

    I just love your posts Profesor. I can tell you're a very experienced martial artis. May I ask how long have you been studying martial arts/WC?
    The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease. Bruce Lee, Tao of Jeet Kune Do

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    Re: Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

    Quote Originally Posted by profesormental View Post
    Also, jabbing someone in the eyes requires NO conditioning to be debilitating.
    That's true if it lands. But what if he (partially) blocks the strike? The conditioning is for when errors happen. If that finger snags in a sleeve it can get broken.

    That having been said, I largely agree spending a lot of time conditioning the fingers isn't time well spent and could be counterproductive.

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    Re: Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

    Greetings.

    Quote Originally Posted by arnisador
    That's true if it lands. But what if he (partially) blocks the strike? The conditioning is for when errors happen. If that finger snags in a sleeve it can get broken.
    If fingers snag, isn't that something that is trained in "fighting for grip" exercises in Judo and Jiu Jitsu? Fingers can be trained to a very functional level without going for high level Iron Finger or 1 or 2 finger zen levels.

    The comment of "that is another story" is exactly your point: how to make finger strikes land.

    And I reached Instructor level in about 1995.

    Hope that helps.

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Talking Re: Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

    Quote Originally Posted by arnisador View Post
    That's true if it lands. But what if he (partially) blocks the strike? ...
    You don't need to spend years toughening your fingers. You can do a lot of damage to your opponent with a relaxed "whipping" finger strike to a sensitive target such as the eyes or throat. If you keep your fingers soft and relaxed and your opponent blocks or ducks so your intended eye strike hits something hard, like his forehead, you won't break your fingers. That's the WT approach.

    Oh, and if you really want to hit somebody with something hard, Arnisador, well we both know the answer to that. That's why God made sticks!!!

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    Re: Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

    That's right! Kamagong hardwood, anyone?

    I fully agree with the finger slick--safer in most cases! All I need is a distraction.

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    Question Re: Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

    Well training an iron fingers gives you an added advantage.

    I think about life and death situtations.

    I am not some big buff hulk hogan guy. So I think its very practical to have some sorta of lethal or deadly technique training. Be it iron palm,piercing toe kick or iron fingers or tiger claw.

    The Reason being is because when you out with your family or friends you may not always have a stick to grab if someone attacks you.

    Here in my City there was a recent barge of attacks my police officer friends told me about that has been happening at Air Port. One family was severly beaten. The father and his wife were badly beaten along with their young daughters under the age of eleven.

    Had this guy had some deadly techniques he could have easily harm them regardless of what weapons they carried. They had weapons he did not. He had his family. in that situtation I would normally use a gun if I had one..If I didn't I may use my metal fountain pen or vice grips I carry around with me. An poke the throats of my enemies. my police officer friend who train WC with said that if he was off duty an some thugs tried to jump him he would start letting off rounds.

    I don't live in a fairy tale world where you beat the guy badly an its all honky dory. Wrestling and doing some great judo moves will not save your arse where I come from. You need to break limbs, Break necks and try to puncture vital points.

    So some see cross training another art as valubale time spent.

    Well why not take that time to refine your stars and make them into deadly weapons so if you ever find yourself unarmed you can do damage. What do I do if I drop my pen, it falls out of my pocket, or I loose it down the shirt of one of foes as I stab in the neck with it?

    What do I do then? I have no weapon now. Sure I can chain punch them. But do I chain punch six to eigth guys?

    Normally after one guy falls with blood squirting out of his neck the other ten to twenty guys will loose all lust for blood. Alot of time weapon or no weapon they reaction would be to break and run then. When they see their comrads falling an not getting up. They usually re-think their actions. Then when they run...No need to take chase walk away in the other direction. But if your surrounded on all sides you need to get out the middle fast. The best way to me to make a hole is take those vice grips an thrust the sternum,throat and groin. Even the fore head makes a fabulous point of attack. AS for the eyes I usually strike the sides of the eyes or underneth the eyes...There are pressure points below the eye ball you strike on face. So if your fingers or vice grips missed or slide upward they hit the eyes. An when it comes time to court..I call my family on the force. An my friends on force....

    Usually what ever the case is the case will settle as they were the aggressors and me being a smaller slim guy was the victim. The only thing I hate when is when they send you notices easing your pain for being a victim. Its really funny to me. I mean realistically. How much time do you need to train your fingers. Why not simple practice 30 push ups a day on your fingers. after awhile it takes two minutes to just fifty. An practice thrusting your fingers in bucket filled with rice for ten minutes a day every day. Realistically you can take a ten minute break to do that. That could be time spent doing some horse stance meditation while striking the rice or steel shots or beans. Its not a total waste of time. At most you spend about fifthteen minutes a day. Thats one fourth of an hour. Whats fifthteen minutes. If you watch the News I gurantee you see atleast fifteen minutes of commericals with in the first thrity of minutes of the news. So why not take that time. Or put on some music an do it...is it a waste of time...It doesn't really take time. An as years progress your strikes will get stronger. Maybe one day your fingers will be strong enough to not break when you strike someone in the skull...What happens is they are hurt. An even if your not doing eye strikes. Its great for kidney and throat strikes.


    Why is cool to cross train so many different styles but the original training of WC is not cool????


    After all WC is known for being a combination of snake and crane. What good is bil gee if you don't have conditioning to your fingers strikes. That means part of your WC is lacking!

    If you do palm strikes you should have iron palms. if you do tiger claw strikes you should have tiger claws conditioning. If you do preying mantis you should develop your mantis hooks. If you do crane you should be able to strike with a crane beak at any part of the body with out breaking your hand. If you do five animals all five animals fist should be developed not just your fist.


    Come on people why is WC so one sided?

    If its crane and snake shouldn't we have those attributes? Doesn't snake strikes exist in WC?

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