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Thread: Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

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    Corporal Hicks's Avatar
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    Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

    I know that this art is extremely effective and I have only just started to pratice and so far only recognise one weakness in its 'style' that being it only really focuses on fighting one opponent at a time. I recently went on a website i.e. one that can not be named due to reasons the moderators told me and all they seemed to be doing was laying into this particular style, some with the signatures that WC destroys rational thought and is useless. I noticed that the majority of these users seemed to be doing ju jitsu, is there something I'm missing between Kung Fu pratictioners and Ju jitsu ones? They also seem to be pointing out alot of weaknesses between it can self defence, I dont understand, so far this seems to be one the most effective in SD and used by law enforcement and armed forces all over the world! Are these guys just simply laying into this art because of a feud I dont understand or is there something that they have a point with?

    Regards

    Hope the reference to a site doesnt annoy the Mod's

    ---
    Nick
    To know oneself is to study oneself in action with another person.
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    dmax999 is offline
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    Re: Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

    Wing Chun is a bit different from all other martial arts, at least in my opinion. This is the reason for the extremely different reputations it has. I used to do it, and I could guarntee a win against over 80% of first degree black belts (Probably a more even) in any other style when I was one year into it with a yellow sash. When practiced correctly, with a good teacher and an almost excessive focus on sparring correctly you will be nearly unbeatable against all but the best practical fighters out there. As for multiple opponents, doesn't need it when you can drop most opponents in about 3 seconds, just go one at a time.

    Now the problem with Wing Chun, as I found out reading web sites telling how bad it is. Most practicioners do not put forth the effort into it. Most people I've seen do it make a poor showing and would have never survived where I was. Most don't do sparring or reflex drills and are slow and have weak moves.

    It is said that a specific style is not better then others in MA, but it is the practioncioner. This is an extreme degree in Wing Chun, and most that you will see are on the wrong side. Do your Wing Chun correctly, work on practical sparring drills and put more effort into it then anyone else you see and you will never doubt you are in the wrong style. You will know that those that bash your style know nothing about it.

    If the site you are talking about is an MMA or BJJ site, to them anything other then MMA and BJJ is worthless. Not even worth the time to discuss it with them. Not a Wing Chun fued, its a any other MA vs them fued. Nothing wrong with MMA or BJJ, they focus on sparring to the exclusion of everthing else and are very effective against almost anything because of it.

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    Gray Phoenix's Avatar
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    Re: Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

    I dont know jack about Wing Chun, except some very basic history, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

    I have found weakness in my own art of Jujitsu. However I also realize I have not been learning for very long. My Professor teaches us the written course material, but also throws in some other things he knows that he doesnt write down. When asked about the weaknesses he will either show me that I am wrong or tell me that I have not learned enough to learn the answer.

    This may be your situation, so I would advise you not to give up, but to learn all you can. Eventually the weakness may turn out to have a purpose.
    Gray Phoenix
    _______________________________________________

    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

    WC does offer a good deal of multiple opponent training...BUT...this is not to say that wing chun teaches how to attack more than one opponent at a time. More to the point, you will divide and split your opponent's, placing one of them between you and the pack...you "fight" them one at a time while dealing with the mass through positioning. Certainly you could say that WC does not emphasize the ammount of movement (dancing around...skirmishing) as would be required in a multiple opponent situation...but alass, no art has it all.

    And more to the point no one person does either. My opinion comes from 2 years of regular WC training...five years ago...which it is no where near as good as someone with say 8 years, who is still training =)
    Kyle

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    Corporal Hicks's Avatar
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    Re: Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

    Quote Originally Posted by dmax999

    If the site you are talking about is an MMA or BJJ site, to them anything other then MMA and BJJ is worthless. Not even worth the time to discuss it with them. Not a Wing Chun fued, its a any other MA vs them fued. Nothing wrong with MMA or BJJ, they focus on sparring to the exclusion of everthing else and are very effective against almost anything because of it.
    I think it is a MMA or BJJ site. Probably why they do not see the point in learning an 'art'.
    Last edited by Corporal Hicks; 02-24-2005 at 04:06 AM. Reason: Spelling
    To know oneself is to study oneself in action with another person.
    Bruce Lee, Tao of Jeet Kune Do

    To see a thing uncoloured by one's own personal preferences and desires is to see it in its own pristine simplicity!

    Bruce Lee, Tao of Jeet Kune Do

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    Re: Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

    To start with there are a lot of knockers of WC, there are a lot of people who say that it is an iffective and useless style of fighting, I have had many discussions with such persons, without knocking their style, the one commonality between them all, They have never studied Wing chun and if they have it was only a matter of a few months to only one person I debated with had studied a maximum of 2 years. Their knowledge of Wing Chun is a best partial and at worst non exsistant. Common sense tells you one thing, how can you knock soemthing you have never really learnt? This is why I dont knock an art that I havent studied indepth because I am not qualified too. Even JKD which I studied 12+ months does not make me qualified to look at its strengths or weaknesses, because of the limited amount of time I have studied it.


    As for not teaching you how to fight against multiple opponants, Wing chun does teach how to fight MO through the principals and teachings of the third form Bui Jee. The reason why most people say it doesn't teach you fighting against MO's is probably becasue they have either never done the form, or where rushed so quickly through the system (a common occurence) that they never went indepth into its teaching.

    You can be rest assured that Wing Chun teaches all of the above and more, take the time necessary with the system as it will yield up a lot of treasure that at first glance may not appear to be there.

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    brothershaw is offline
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    Re: Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

    1.Everything has a weakness that is reality.
    2.For something to be the next big thing it has to be better than the last big thing.( marketing) one day ninjitsu is the stuff, next day wing chun, next day jkd, next day bjj, tomorrow sumo.
    3.Does anybody in thier right mind believe you can use bjj to submit multiple oppenents at the same time? yeah okay
    4. Alot of the stuff about wing chun in magazines and so forth is often either b.s or low level stuff, which if you look at the pictures they may as well be doing karate, because the picture does no justice to how the techinque would actually look, or the correct energy involved ( sometimes this may be intentional)
    5.People hear or read about centerline and chain punches but actually have no or little idea what its about.
    6. Is wing chun perfect of course not, but with good instruction its some very good stuff.
    7. There is so much other stuff in wing chun that you can do, chain punches are actually the most basic, and the last thing I would try to use unless my mind froze up.
    8. Unfortunately bruce lee "left" wing chun so its no good, yeah okay.
    9. Unfortunately no wing chun fighter has won the UFC so its no good , yeah okay.

    Wing chun is complex, its description is simple.

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    bcbernam777's Avatar
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    Re: Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

    I am in total agreement with the comment of its portrayel in Magazines, who tend to portray WC at a longer range, (obviously to get the happy snaps), Wing chun can look totally different than the promotional gloss that adorns magazines and marketing material. one of its true Beuties is in its infighting, up closs and personal, the subtleties that can be played out with Wing Chun in the confined area are absolutly breath taking, if it is understood and clearly recognizable to the observer. I dont know about Wing Chuns weaknesses, wht I may consider a weakness one day may in 2-12 months time suddenly not be the weakness in the system that I once thought it was because "now I understand that principle". My own personal opinion is that people tend to be too willing to knock the art (and this does happen across the board). I also agree with the excerpt about chain punching but I do think its apllication is a little more broad than just trying to unfreeze from the situation. however this is a very relevant and powerful use of the chain punch, and I also am amazed that everyone is focused on the chain punch when Wing chun clearly goes beyond the scope of chain punching. I think the thing to understand is that the debates will always rage against the Northern V Southern, the MMA v the Cma etc etc, oh well such is life.

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    brothershaw is offline
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    Re: Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

    One more thing....

    Wing chun is often hyped as something that can be learned very quickly, however in the beginning especially the positions are uncomfortable and can seem unnatural, so like other styles people leave before they get used to it, or really learn anything.
    If you come from another style long range and karate in particular it can be a big adjustment.I have noticed that beginners who come from karate and beginners who lift weights have the same feel.
    Doing sil lum tao in the beginning can be pretty boring but after a couple of years its almost not boring (lol) actually you begin to enjoy doing it.And start to pick up the things you missed when you thought it was boring.

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    dmax999 is offline
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    Re: Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

    I want to say something about Wing Chun being quick to learn. It is somewhat true.

    When I took it, after a few months (about 4), I was extremely competent at the basics and could chain punch and do the few kicks I knew with good power. I was probably in equal skill to a brown belt in Karate or TKD. I would be willing to state that a WCer at 4-6 months could beat someone in just about any other MA with 4-6 months training. This is in a full contact no rules situation, not a point sparing situation (I have yet to see WC do good in a controled sparring situation against other styles, we just never did it).

    Reason I believe this is that beginning WC there are so few moves and attacks learned that you get really good at the ones you know. In addition you train so you know which move to use in which situation. Not like other styles where you have ten things you can do against a jab, and you suck at each of those ten things. You know one thing and have practiced it until you have gotten really good at it.

    Once you extend the time to 1 or more years of training, WC may or may not be more effective. At this point it will have far more to do with the specific person instead of the style.

    Just so you don't think you can master WC in a couple months, there is far far more to learn. But the winner in a real fight is the one who can execute the simplest manuvers flawlessly, and I think that is what beginning WC is all about.

    Of course I had a GREAT teacher, which may have made the above statement true for me, but many others may disagree completely.

  11. #11
    Angelusmortis Guest

    Re: Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

    Right. This annoys me in MA. I'm not having "a go" at anyone on this site, far from it, but the "my MA's better than yours" is so childish. Firstly, MMA and BJJ are simply the latest popular styles, made popular through success in a tournament like the UFC. BJJ is pretty much just ju-jitsu with the judo plonked back into it, there are shortcomings in WC, however, on the street I don't want to start grappling and rolling round on the deck. I want to have a few very effective, hard hitting, straight line whacks, and then get the hell out of there, and vanish. MMA and BJJ have their strengths, i.e being effective in a small area caged environment (UFC), but having studied jujitsu and judo for several years, I began to feel as though they were a little robotic. So took up WC some months ago, and have been impressed with it's simplicity. So what if you can't fight multiple opponents, in reality the odds are whatever MA you did, unless you were a super human/instructor level type fighter, that you'd get a kicking regardless.

    Corporal Hicks mate, I'd not listen to what other people say and just enjoy the art for what it is. I have nothing against other MA's at all, and am quite willing to discuss different ideas for different situations, but it does get me goat a bit when others slag off another style. Bigotted opinions all round. Hope no one's offended by this, no offence was intended.

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    Corporal Hicks's Avatar
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    Re: Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelusmortis
    Right. This annoys me in MA. I'm not having "a go" at anyone on this site, far from it, but the "my MA's better than yours" is so childish. Firstly, MMA and BJJ are simply the latest popular styles, made popular through success in a tournament like the UFC. BJJ is pretty much just ju-jitsu with the judo plonked back into it, there are shortcomings in WC, however, on the street I don't want to start grappling and rolling round on the deck. I want to have a few very effective, hard hitting, straight line whacks, and then get the hell out of there, and vanish. MMA and BJJ have their strengths, i.e being effective in a small area caged environment (UFC), but having studied jujitsu and judo for several years, I began to feel as though they were a little robotic. So took up WC some months ago, and have been impressed with it's simplicity. So what if you can't fight multiple opponents, in reality the odds are whatever MA you did, unless you were a super human/instructor level type fighter, that you'd get a kicking regardless.

    Corporal Hicks mate, I'd not listen to what other people say and just enjoy the art for what it is. I have nothing against other MA's at all, and am quite willing to discuss different ideas for different situations, but it does get me goat a bit when others slag off another style. Bigotted opinions all round. Hope no one's offended by this, no offence was intended.
    Amen to that my friend! What annoys me is that a lot of BBJ and MMA simply regard you as lower because you dont do their style if you like and refuse to see the weaknesses in their own. Are so many of them that narrow minded as to totally disregard other styles and not see the weaknesses in their own! Its a sad sad world!
    To know oneself is to study oneself in action with another person.
    Bruce Lee, Tao of Jeet Kune Do

    To see a thing uncoloured by one's own personal preferences and desires is to see it in its own pristine simplicity!

    Bruce Lee, Tao of Jeet Kune Do

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    Re: Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

    Everybody believes their style is best, or else they wouldn't do it. No style is best, just best for the individual. And the individual may need to study several styles before he can decide which is best for him. When you understand your style deeply and thoroughly, then you will find that you can get it to work under most any circumstances, even tho it may have certain advantages under certain circumstances (i.e. Wing Chung being a close range style has advantages in a crowded or cramped situation).

    If you enjoy the training you are doing and believe it is valuable and you are developing valuable skills, then stick with it, and don't worry about what others say, or think about it. People bashing different styles is an unfortunate reality of the politics in the martial arts.

    Michael

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    CuongNhuka is offline Account Under Review - Contact AdminTeam 1,000 Post Club
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    Re: Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

    o.k. This is the deal. Martial arts are NOT ABOUT FIGHTING. Since they are not about fighting now their use is not important. If you want a style that you can use to beat the crapp out of people yah Jui Jitsu is one of the more effective all in all. Wing Chun and Jui Jitsu were created with the purpose of fighting in mind, so they WILL be effective, and if they weren't would they exist, NO!!!! o.k. so then what is the power of wing chun? Will let me think... mmm... how about in just a few years you arms have probably been pounded on enough that your arms are like rebar, you've probably punched bags with what has the consistency of crushed concrete that punching you would probably knock you out. Youíve done Chi Sao and other sensitivity drills to make your arms able to notice the germ crawling up them (joke). Youíve probably performed Sui Nim Dao so many times your body is like a golden gods' (joke). And then theirs also the two other disarmed fours that devolved fighting technique and the eight wooden dummy forms. The double butterfly sword form that developes striking on angles, the weight also increases the speed of your hands.



    And what about Jui Jitsu. Well it was created with little in mind other then fighting and killing people. Most of the style is about dislocating/breaking bones/joints, tearing muscles, and killing people. If it couldn't do that then what do you think the odds are of anyone caring at all who the samurai are?? Does they wouldn't sound fair???

    Most of the people that actually care if a martial art is effective do so for one of the following reasons:



    1. They are looking a reason to complain about the style. Meaning they don't understand the power behind it, and so say that it is useless, and stop doing the style. And will probably tell every one they meet how useless it is, even though it probably isn't.



    2. They were in a fight and tried, unsuccessfully, to use what they knew. And then it's the same as one.



    3. They are so into their own style that they find it necessary to find each and every fault with every other style, and deny that their own has any. Every style, keep in mind has its faults. Jui Jitsuís is that many of the attacks are more then easily lethal, and many are meant to.



    4. They are simply a bigot. The stupid -blank- in this group are normally against all forms of Asian martial arts. They normally don't realize that boxing, wrestling, and kick boxing (which they do recognize has effective) are martial arts. Those are in my oppoin the worst. Why? Well actual martial artists well normally not make fun of actual people. I'm kinda getting tired of the idiots in my weight training class poking fun at Jet Li, Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee. Getting off topic though.



    Any way sorry for the length, and getting off subject, and swearing, and rude comments. Any way bye.



    Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,



    John
    Last edited by CuongNhuka; 09-24-2005 at 08:42 PM.

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    Re: Noticing the weaknesses in Wing Chun!

    Quote Originally Posted by coungnhuka
    o.k. This is the deal. Martial arts are NOT ABOUT FIGHTING. [color=black]Since they are not about fighting now their use is not important. If you want a style that you can use to beat the crapp out of people yah Jui Jitsu is one of the more effective all in all. Wing Chun and Jui Jitsu were created with the purpose of fighting in mind, so they WILL be effective, and if they weren't would they exist, NO!!!!

    So, following this rationale, Wing Chun and Brazilian Jujitsu are not martial arts? Or am I to understand that all arts currently practiced today are street lethal because if they weren't, they wouldn't exist? You're not real clear here.



    Regards,


    Steve
    "Life in Lubbock, Texas taught me two things. One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, dirty thing on the face of the earth and you should save it for someone you love."

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