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Thread: Wing Chun vs. Boxing

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    Re: Wing Chun vs. Boxing

    CMA likes to fight to be inside instead of to fight to be outside, to fight to be on top instead of to fight be on the bottom.
    While I've been on the topic of boxing, I'd like to bring up my experience with TKD here. Our self defense drills have us stepping out away from the punch, essentially angling on the attack to get us out of the center line of the attacker, while putting the attacker into our center line. What you're saying is the goal in CMA is instead to get inside the opponent's defenses instead of around them?
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    Re: Wing Chun vs. Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by skribs View Post
    While I've been on the topic of boxing, I'd like to bring up my experience with TKD here. Our self defense drills have us stepping out away from the punch, essentially angling on the attack to get us out of the center line of the attacker, while putting the attacker into our center line. What you're saying is the goal in CMA is instead to get inside the opponent's defenses instead of around them?
    If you think

    - you are better than your opponent, you enter through your opponent's front door (space between both arms).
    - your opponent is better than you, you enter through your opponent's side door (space outside of each arm).

    This is just a general concept that has nothing to do with style. You can do this when you are in your opponent's front door.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttYy1rPcqTc

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    Re: Wing Chun vs. Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Kung Fu Wang View Post
    If you think

    - you are better than your opponent, you enter through your opponent's front door (space between both arms).
    - your opponent is better than you, you enter through your opponent's side door (space outside of each arm).
    This is why I favor off-lining and entering from the outside gate or oi moon. As I get on in years, I tend to assume that my opponent is younger, stronger, faster, and usually bigger than I am. That doesn't make him "better" though!

    Now to Scribs: It's hard to generalize about CMA since there are so many different Chinese martial arts specializing in different ranges and approaches. But if you are talking Wing Chun, yes we do constantly press forwards and tend to move inside... although not necessarily right up the middle like Izzo did in that clip. We are at our best just outside of the clinch, which generally makes us very effective in close against longer range styles like TKD. I speak from experience since one of our local branches operates out of a good TKD school and the school owner (5th degree) and a couple of his blackbelts are learning Ving Tsun from us.


    Now as far as WC and Boxing go. Remember WC is boxing. Chinese boxing. And in some ways it's not so far removed from what Western boxing looked like in the early bare-knuckle days. Boxing has evolved over the last century. WC is evolving too. That's why I give creative thinkers like Fernandez, Gutierrez, Izzo, Orr and others credit even when I don't agree with everything they come up with. After all, "a wise man learns from others", both from their successes and from their mistakes!

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    Re: Wing Chun vs. Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by skribs View Post
    Geezer, the problem is pretty much everything about WC vs. Boxing in that video showed why boxing was superior.

    1) Hand position: it was shown that there are holes in the WC stance that do not exist in boxing (my original point in my OP), and that taking a WC stance is telegraphing your style (while a boxing stance might be any number of styles, from boxing to kickboxing).
    2) Footwork: boxing has superior footwork, which made it harder for the WC fighter to make use of his techniques. WC might adapt into it, but then this would be a neutral point and not a pro for WC.
    3) The Wing Chun style, from what I've seen, doesn't support torquing your body. It relies on snap power to get a lot of little hits in while maintaining a strong position. The boxer showed that you can torque your body without sacrificing mobility.

    The take-away from that is this: if you take a WC fighter and make the above changes, you are left with something that is basically a modified version of boxing. With that said, I have two big questions:

    1) In the points above, are there any pros to the Wing Chun style? For example, the hand position has a con (provides less coverage). Is there a pro to the hand position besides tradition?
    2) Are there points where boxing* can learn from Wing Chun? This video just showed what WC can learn from boxing.

    *When I say "boxing" I mean any sport based on boxing, including kickboxing, savate, muay thai, MMA, etc. So yes, Wing Chun has kicks and true Boxing is just punches, but I'm looking at the style of boxing/kickboxing vs. the traditional stance.
    So my two cents; I would say that video was aimed at WC folks, with the idea of a boxer who has WC experience explaining where he sees holes in WC from a boxer's point of view. Without some understanding of both WC and boxing, I don't think the points they were trying to make will come across too well.

    Like most arts, some WC folks get so wrapped up with training WC vs other WC players that they don't stop to think about how someone trained in another art might approach them (I'm sure you've seen this in the TKD world). So yes, the video makes WC look inferior to boxing, because most of it is explaining to WC guys where a boxer might find holes in WC.

    Also keep in mind that, like most other martial arts, there is good WC and bad WC out there. Bad WC might be full of all the holes the boxer was pointing out. Good WC would not. For instance, when he explained how a boxer would get around the WC guard. Sure, if the WC guy just stands there with his hands out, it'll be pretty easy to get around. But that would be bad WC. WC is an aggressive art, and doesn't work if you just stand there with your arms out waiting for your opponent to clock you. Or, when he explained (as a boxer) angling off and attacking along the centerline while your opponent isn't facing your center. Good WC should do that, too.

    To point #3; WC does support body torquing. Watch our second form, Chum kiu.

    Quote Originally Posted by skribs View Post
    One of the basic principles of Wing Chun is simultaneous defense and attack, with the primary focus being your and your opponent's centerline. I would classify these defenses as fairly active, as you are actively deflecting an attack with one hand while striking with the other.
    Ideally, you would be defending and attacking with the same hand at the same time. For instance, you punch, I punch. My punch both deflects yours and hits its target.

    Quote Originally Posted by skribs View Post
    In a boxing stance (which is the basic sparring stance for most striking combat sports, including boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, and MMA), your hands are held closer the body and used as a guard. Defense from this position is easier - your hands provide a barrier between yourself and your opponent. Granted, the barrier has holes, but it's a much smaller movement to defend against attacks.

    Specifically regarding a Wing Chun fighter vs. a boxer, the guard makes a good shield against straight punches.
    The idea of WC is to find and exploit those holes. Does the boxer's guard make a good defense against WC attacks? Maybe, depends on how good the WC guys is at getting through those holes.

    Quote Originally Posted by skribs View Post
    I'm not trying to flame the art, I'm just curious. I consider boxing and Wing Chun to both be arts based on the science of punching (much like my art, TKD, is the science of kicking). The two arts have radically different philosophies, and I'd like to know what the advantages of Wing Chun are as opposed to something like boxing, kickboxing, or muay thai.
    Personally, I see alot of similarity between boxing and WC. Sure, they approach things a bit differently, but I don't think I'd say that they are "radically" different.
    If you don't train hard when you're young, you will have nothing when you're old.

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    Re: Wing Chun vs. Boxing

    Also keep in mind that, like most other martial arts, there is good WC and bad WC out there. Bad WC might be full of all the holes the boxer was pointing out. Good WC would not. For instance, when he explained how a boxer would get around the WC guard. Sure, if the WC guy just stands there with his hands out, it'll be pretty easy to get around. But that would be bad WC. WC is an aggressive art, and doesn't work if you just stand there with your arms out waiting for your opponent to clock you. Or, when he explained (as a boxer) angling off and attacking along the centerline while your opponent isn't facing your center. Good WC should do that, too.
    Ideally, you would be defending and attacking with the same hand at the same time. For instance, you punch, I punch. My punch both deflects yours and hits its target.
    These are very good explanations of the pros of WC.
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    Re: Wing Chun vs. Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by J W View Post
    some WC folks get so wrapped up with training WC vs other WC players that they don't stop to think about how someone trained in another art might approach them
    Totally agree! J W is right on the money here. This lack of vision by some in the WC world makes them think there WC is good to go against EVERYONE...just because they can beat up their fellow WC partners in the kwoon.

    Quote Originally Posted by J W View Post
    there is good WC and bad WC out there. Bad WC might be full of all the holes the boxer was pointing out. Good WC would not.
    Absolutely. The sad part is...either the boxer guy or this izzo guy isn't well versed in "good" WC in my opinion. Sadly, many internet surfers tend to lean on youtube WC'ers as gospel. Izzo being on of them. I would have had more respect for izzo if he had included the full WC arsenal...but perhaps he doesn't know it yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by J W View Post
    WC is an aggressive art
    Agree! "Good" WC has a rich assortment of footwork which, when properly learned, drilled, trained, allows the WC exponent a wide latitude of movement in order to constantly bring the agressiveness to the adversary.

    Quote Originally Posted by J W View Post
    To point #3; WC does support body torquing. Watch our second form, Chum kiu.
    Again, totally agree with J W here. Again, Izzo and/or this boxer guy do not understand even basic WC IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by J W View Post
    Ideally, you would be defending and attacking with the same hand at the same time. For instance, you punch, I punch. My punch both deflects yours and hits its target.
    Yup!!!!! Another example of "good" WC. And, as J W states... "ideally". Because not everything is 100% effective, 100% of the time.

    And finally, let's not forget that "good" WC has a rich, in-depth leg / kick training arsenal. Most youtube vids and the like seem to only focus on waist up WC...forgetting the lower half of the body. This is a huge mistake. Properly trained, a WC man's legs are formidable.

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    Re: Wing Chun vs. Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwan Sau View Post
    ...And finally, let's not forget that "good" WC has a rich, in-depth leg / kick training arsenal. Most youtube vids and the like seem to only focus on waist up WC...forgetting the lower half of the body. This is a huge mistake. Properly trained, a WC man's legs are formidable.
    This is something the long range kickers, like TKD guys, often forget. Unlike long range styles, WC's kicks are most effective at very close range and can delivered at the same time that we are attacking with our hands. That means that we can attack the boxer's legs and disrupt his stance creating holes for our striking attacks. A boxer's stance is not designed to deliver close kicks and punches at the same time. Kick boxers do both, but they typically kick from a longer range, then close to punch. WC is unusual in this regard.

    In the lineage I train, we keep our weight back precisely so we can punch or kick at will without shifting our weight off the front leg. I know of no other system that has a structure so geared for simultaneous close range hand and leg attacks.

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    Re: Wing Chun vs. Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwan Sau View Post
    Again, Izzo and/or this boxer guy do not understand even basic WC IMO.
    I'll admit that I didn't watch that entire video before my first response, just the first ten minutes or so. I went back and watched a little more, and I think I may have to agree with you about that. Their arguments start to get a little absurd near the end.

    I'm certainly not an expert myself after only a couple years of training, but seems to me that pretty much everything that the boxer cited as missing from WC is actually there, and most of his characterizations of the weaknesses of WC are based on misunderstandings.

    skribs, I wouldn't take anything in that video as indicative of actual WC.
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    Re: Wing Chun vs. Boxing

    Is there a better video that you would suggest?

    Preferably one that doesn't assume the boxer leaves his arm out after a jab.
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    Re: Wing Chun vs. Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by skribs View Post
    I'm going to guess:
    2xWrist
    2xElbow
    2xShoulder
    2xHip
    2xKnee
    2xAnkle
    1xNeck

    That adds up to 13 joints. However, I don't see that a boxer is not in control of those. He hunches over to provide a smaller target and let his shields (arms, shoulders) protect his head and neck more.
    You are pretty much spot on with the estimation of joints.

    The Hunched posture does protect against incoming blows more easily - it does not protect against clinch and throw very easily. Your neck and sometimes shoulder are more easily compromised. From my limited experience in Thai kickboxing, you'll see them typically be much more upright than a western boxer because the clinch is a big part of their game. WC has the same idea.

    There is no ultimate technique in martial arts, there's only trade. The posture in question gives smaller target, but easier to disrupt gravity - which one you value more is up to the style of fighting you choose to pursue and personal taste/experience.
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    Re: Wing Chun vs. Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer View Post
    I know of no other system that has a structure so geared for simultaneous close range hand and leg attacks.
    There are quite a few.
    Form follows function.

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    Re: Wing Chun vs. Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by skribs View Post
    Is there a better video that you would suggest?

    Preferably one that doesn't assume the boxer leaves his arm out after a jab.
    Sorry, I don't have any videos for ya. I'll try to give you my take on your original question, though, which I believe was the advantages of the typical WC stance/guard vs a boxer's typical stance/guard.

    First, equal hands. Facing your opponent square on, both hands are in play without having to rotate the body. A boxer needs to rotate their hips and shoulders to get the cross out, so only the lead arm is in play until they do that. Second, with the arms extended in jong sau instead of held close to the face for defense, they are closer to the target, so a smaller movement is needed to attack. Think of this as an aggressive offensive position rather than purely defensive. Third, once contact is made with the hands/arms, we will have tactile information from our opponent. WC will act to get in and establish contact with the opponent quickly, and move to off balance or uproot them. We can react quicker to our opponents moves when we can feel what they are doing. With our hands back in defense, we have to rely solely on visual information. And assuming a square on stance with the feet, instead of one leg leading, we are now free to step in with either foot. The whole body is coordinated on the attack. With one leg back, you have much further to step to bring the rear leg forward.

    There is of course more to it, and there will always be trade-offs, but hopefully that gives an idea of some of the advantages to our WC approach.
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    Re: Wing Chun vs. Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by blindsage View Post
    There are quite a few.
    Help me out here. I can't think of any other well known system that specializes in infighting using a back-weighted stance allowing you to execute simultaneous flurries of punches and kicks. Now my WC doesn't do that so well, and I usually keep my feet on the ground, but my old Chinese sifu used his feet as dextrously as his hands to strike, check, sweep, lock and trap. Anyone who has seen advanced chi-sau with chi-gherk knows what I'm talking about.

    Now I'd guess that some of the other southern Chinese "narrow bridge" systems such as pak-mei, southern mantis, southern dragon and so forth, share some of these skills, and I've seen some similar things in FMA, but if you guys know of other arts that share this focus, let me know.

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    Re: Wing Chun vs. Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer View Post
    Help me out here. I can't think of any other well known system that specializes in infighting using a back-weighted stance allowing you to execute simultaneous flurries of punches and kicks. Now my WC doesn't do that so well, and I usually keep my feet on the ground, but my old Chinese sifu used his feet as dextrously as his hands to strike, check, sweep, lock and trap. Anyone who has seen advanced chi-sau with chi-gherk knows what I'm talking about.

    Now I'd guess that some of the other southern Chinese "narrow bridge" systems such as pak-mei, southern mantis, southern dragon and so forth, share some of these skills, and I've seen some similar things in FMA, but if you guys know of other arts that share this focus, let me know.

    Xingyiquan, Taijiquan, Baguazhang all use a back weighted stance all fight in close and all can kick and punch at the same time

    A lot of CMA styles have simultaneous kicks and punches but they are not all back weighted stances
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    Re: Wing Chun vs. Boxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Xue Sheng View Post
    Xingyiquan, Taijiquan, Baguazhang all use a back weighted stance all fight in close and all can kick and punch at the same time
    A lot of CMA styles have simultaneous kicks and punches but they are not all back weighted stances
    Thanks, Xue. I've seen things like that in Xingyichuan and taijiquan but I have no knowledge of those systems.

    Now about the back-weighting. Unless you have your weight back you can't really work your punches and kicks simultaneously since you need to unweight the lead leg before you can lift it up to kick. If you are back-weighted, the lead leg can come into play as needed. The result is fighting with both hands and one-leg at the same time as you can see in the following picture:

    http://www.wtcolorado.com/2006%20Sem...20Chi-Gerk.jpg

    Actually, IMO most of the time you are better off not trying to fight with three limbs at once. I really like the following explanation by Alex Richter:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHq-EmAlJ_g

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