I am not sure what Doom is after but I have to admit it's a compelling topic. I would like to learn more about it too but geesh, where to start?
Doom, what is it that you are trying to see with this project?
Preserving Authentic Hapkido for future generations.
(Not the only one, just one who is...)
I am not sure what Doom is after but I have to admit it's a compelling topic. I would like to learn more about it too but geesh, where to start?
This is an interesting thread. I have practiced Aikido for many years and just recently started Hapkido. I have also trained and examined DR techniques through out the time I was training in Aikido. One thing that is of note is how the Aikido techniques have changed from pre- WW2 (Aikibudo) to post WW2 and even over the years I have trained. Versions of Aikido such as Yoshinkan are very close to DR. And even the Iwama style of Aikido is more combative than the traditional style of Aikido that is taught in many dojos.
What I find fascinating are the similarities in techniques across all the three arts and yet how different they are. Even though all the arts have what appear to be the standard set of classical jujutsu techniques (omitting BJJ because I have no experience in it) the way they are taught and the focus on how they are taught is different.
The previously posted shihonage video is a good example of this. Ironically, the way it is shown in the video is how I was originally taught the technique in Aikido some 20 years ago. It started with a sword kata then went to empty hand. a lot of time was spent explaining how dangerous the technique is. The reason for the explanation was to prevent injury, not to give someone knowledge on how to hurt a person. Regretfully, Aikido does not show the connection between the sword techniques and the empty hand techniques as the main focus of the training. By saying this I am not saying every dojo or sensei does this. I am sure there are places that go into great detail about the relationship between sword technique and empty hand. In my experience, i have seen a decline in this practice. Traditional Aikido has weapon katas that are the weapons version of the empty hand techniques. While other styles of Aikido created their own weapons katas that have little or no relation to the empty hand techniques.
With Hapkido I can say I have learned the technique without the sword explanation. However, unlike DR or Aikido this technique was introduced to me as a defense to a knife attack. Usually defending against knife attacks was seen as a more advanced form of training. Students would start off learning this technique from a grab. It would appear that Hapkido is demonstrating a more combat orientated approach to their training not really seen in Aikido. But here my knowledge and exposure is extremely limited as I have just begun to train in this art. I am sure one of the more experienced practitioners of Hapkido will weigh in and shed light on training techniques and emphasis. From what I have read in Hapkido books there is a great deal of emphasis on Hapki and the explanations seem more similar between DR and Hapkido rather than Aikido. Yet, DR is really in a league of its own even in the Koryu circles.
For me it is not so much the similarities in techniques but the differences in training focus that distinguishes the uniqueness and ultimately the effectiveness of the arts.
Hap - thanks for your post. You might want go to the Meet and Greet sub-forum and introduce yourself.
I would be very interested in your insights to differences or similarities between Aikido and Hapkido as you continue to train.
As to the video, I guess you are referring to the sword technique portion? Knife techniques were a more advanced set of techniques, being taught at the red belt level when I began studying. I understand the Korean Hapkido Association has since moved it to somewhere between 1st and 2nd dan instruction. However, I can't think of any grab defense that transitioned into a knife defense. I will have think on that more. Mind you, we do usually grab the knife hand, but I don't recall a grab defense that would begin it. It was to deflect and control the knife hand, or apply something like a hammer lock.
I need to think on that more. I may have missed the connection. Thanks for your insights.
Anyway, I would imagine that Choi's version Daito ryu would differ greatly because I get the sense that he may have sparred alot, shaping the way he did techniques differently from how he was taught through trial and error in sparring matches. Possibly creating something very effective and straight forward that we see some Hapkido styles today. This is just a theory, but one I think is worth looking into.
Also, I would think that Daito ryu Aikijujutsu may have changed since the passing of Sokaku Takeda. But I have no proof to really go on this one either. But, GM Choi's Hapkido may be more closer to what Takeda taught than what is being taught as Daito ryu today. As far as I can tell, Aikido and Aikijujutsu are looking more and more alike.
Also there are Hapkido techniques that I am trying to master, and by studying the source art (Daito ryu) I can get a better idea of how the techniques are done in Japan, and how they differ in Hapkido, and maybe figure out why the techniques changed here and there as well as learn different ways of doing the same technique. Of course, I understand that techniques vary teacher to teacher, but some techniques remain the same regardless of Hapkido style.
I would to mention as well, I would like to learn the Japanese names to the same techniques found in Hapkido as most Hapkido styles don't have names for many of their techniques. I learn better by names or giving techniques names rather than saying ' here is technique #1, now here is #2,..' and so on.
But, anyway, it all about learning, and growing as a martial artist. Also, honoring the memory of GM Choi and the other marital art giants from that time period. I want to preserve history as well as do research into Hapkido's roots that wouldn't just benefit myself, but anyone who would be interested. I appreciate all the comments and thoughts so far.
My 'research' is hopefully received in good spirit for which it is intended.
- Brian (or Doom)
FWIW I think you will find Hapkido is brutal in that it doesn't seek to avoid harming the opponent, in fact, generally the opposite. At least the Hapkido I learned is that way. Sort of 'I didn't want to do this to begin with, and I don't want to do it again'.
If you want to study DaiIto Ryu, that is you business. But from my experience, that is not necessary for the learning of Hapkido. Nor would I think, learning any other MA that may have ancestry from another identifiable MA. A MA being taught, should stand well on its own teaching. I would think it more likely that you would either confuse yourself, or slow yourself down unnecessarily. You don't mention, but are you studying Hapkido formally, or just trying to grab a technique here and there?
In the Hapkido I studied, on a military installation, time was preceious. My GM had long ago gone to using English rather than trying to teach Korean as well as Hapkido. However, it followed the Korean example of Yellow Belt Punch Block #1, Blue Belt Kick Block #5, etc. Perhaps if you substitute such a description it will be easier for you. If there are Hapkido schools that only use numbers, I guess it is that teacher's choice to do. I actually know very little about other Hapkido schools, as I only studied under my GM. It would seem strange to try to do it any other way than what I mentioned.
As a further comment, if you are indeed only trying to grab a technique here and there, I sure wouldn't stress too much over it. Learn it and move on. Why worry about where it came from outside of Hapkido if you aren't a serious student of Hapkido. If you are a serious student of Hapkido, ask your teacher. But learn what your teacher teaches about the techniques, no matter where they may have originated from. Many MA have borrowed things that seemed very useful from other MA (and why not), starting back from a very long time ago.
Many times when I ask a martial art related topic on the internet, the remark that usually follows is, "ask your teacher". But thing is, I have. Many times, when I see that remark, I bite my lip. Instead I choose to write long, loving, flowery paragraphs to explain my position better, But not this time. I'm a little offended at the idea that somehow, I'm being disrepectful to my teacher by asking questions, and by the idea that I'm not a serious student of Hapkido by researching what came before it. When you or anyone says things like that, not only does it shut down a good discussion, but is disrespectful.
And the reason I am 'worried', as you say, about the origins of Hapkido is because I am a serious student of Hapkido. I learn what I'm taught, I ask question about what I'm taught and why I'm taught it. And I might like to know more of the history and origins of the art before that knowledge is lost as more students of GM Choi passes away.
I'm not disrespecting my teacher by asking questions outside of his dojang. One would think the hallmark of good student is one that 'asks questions'. The fact is, nobody's teacher has all the answers, and all of my instructors would admit that. That's why we get on message boards like Martial Talk to ask questions, debate, have discussions, and share knowledge. For if not, why are we here?
To often I see people more interested in stroking each others egos rather than healthy debate.
Anyway, thats all I want here, honestly, is healthy discussion on Hapkido. And not to be criticized just for asking questions. Though the offense may not have been intended, it left a bad taste in my mouth regardless.
Is Daito ryu neccessary to study as your learning Hapkido, no, far from it. As we know, Hapkido stands on its own. But, for someone like me, I have question's, I love learning the history of martial arts, all martial arts.
To me, I see nothing wrong with studying the roots of Hapkido because I can only benefit from it. The three things I want to learn is: more of the history/roots of Hapkido, roots of Hapkido techniques, and how they differ from Daito ryu.
For a quick comparison, the Okinawan's who created Karate by blending their native arts with Chinese methods, they would actually travel to southern China to gain a better understand of what aspects of their art comes from, how it differs, and what they can walk away with from what they learned. Also the Okinawans studied a book called the Bubishi (a Chinese book about White Crane, Monk fist, pressure points, and herbal medicines).
Also, I would point out, that there many deciated Aikido practioners who have studied Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu for the same reason as listed above. They often find that Daito ryu is more of a devasting style in the beginning whereas Aikido does nothing like that. And it raises health questions about Aikido, and improves their understanding of Aikido.
Anyway, for anyone still interested in this discussion here are a few points of interest listed below:
I do understand that there are Daito Ryu techniques that seek not to harm your opponent and that Hapkido is more concerned with ending the fight quickly and with devastating results. I love that about Hapkido.
Which also goes into the idea that GM Choi changed Daito Ryu into a more street effective style as concerned with the unarmed techniques as compared to Daito Ryu?
Here are a few interesting questions:
* When Choi developed Hapkido, was he the one that incorparated Judo techniques into the curriculum or was it one of his students that came later?
I've heard it said that his first student was a black belt in Judo, and that the two of them worked out defenses against Judo style throws. But, interesting to note, even if GM Choi never introduce Judo throws into his curriculum, those who presumably added later changed the throws in such a way that it brought back the Judo throws to more of their Jujutsu roots. Example: In many Hapkido Judo style throws the arm that is used as a 'lever' is locked as you throw your opponent, and you don't let go as your opponent hits the ground. Compare that to the same throws in Judo, the arms are often not locked, and you let go of your partner as he falls.
The philosophy as I understand it is this: In Hapkido, after they break and tear you joints to hell, they just discard the body with a judo technique or anther way of looking at it, is if a technique feel to break the joint, you can turn it into a judo throw and since the elbow may already be locked it makes for a more devastating throw.
* I've heard said that GM Choi spoke very little Korean, and when he did he spoke in a Japanese accent. This to me would explain why in many Hapkido schools, techniques are often referred by number and not name.
Also it would explain why no two Hapkido schools have names for their techniques often differ from one another.
To me it is easier to go over techniques with names rather than by number. An example would be if the instructor said do Omote Gyaku. And I would know that is a outside wrist twist. He could call out Omote Gyaku wrist grab, Omote Gyaku from a punch, Omote Gyaku from a clothing grab...etc. To me that is easier for me personally to learn.
* Could 'Break-Aways' be originally intended as defense not just against other Hapkido practictioners, but also against Judo practictioners since Judo often grabs the hand, wrist, and elbow as fulcrum in their throws?
Does Daito Ryu teach break aways as it relates to this debate?
* What were some of the Hand strikes that GM Choi taught?
I know he taught kicks, but not the ones we see today. The kick he taught were aimed at the groin, the feet, the knees, the back of the knees, side of the leg, the thighs, basically the lower half of the body. But, what were the hand strikes? I would be qurious and appreciative for a list.
But anyway, this is but a few question I have concerning Gm Choi and origins of Hapkido.
I just want people to know that the questions I have posed are my theories or opinions and to not get offended.
Its all healthy debate in which two sides share ideas to come to the logical truth.
Also I am a student of the World JunTong Moosul Hapkido, Huek Choo Kwan Hapkido, and Bujinkan Budo Taijutus. The reason I list that so I everyone will have better understanding of what my martial art background is.
Also, I've been training in martial arts for about 10 years now. Personally, I enjoy learning all martial arts. In seeing merit in everything. By asking these questions, I think we all will benefit from it as we might find some answers that we can share with like minded individuals instead of saying, ' I don't know'.
Last edited by Doomx2001; 08-02-2012 at 02:14 PM.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Aikido and DRAJJ use a similar numbering for at least a portion of their techniques don't they? Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Sankyo..... Don't they just translate to first technique, second technique, third technique....?
I look forward to the results of your research and hope you keep us all posted.
Here is a quick list of all the names that I can think of or quickly research for techniques found in most Hapkido schools. Also, I have given english nicknames that I've come up with over the years that took me a while to think up over the years for some of these techniques to help corralate everything.
Its also worth mentioning that I use WHA's termanology alot as it is one of the few Hapkido styles that has names for their core techniques.
The same can be said also for Hankido. Hankido is a blend of Hapkido and Aikido.
The video examples that I list are the best that I can find at the moment.
Also, most Hapkido videos demonstrate a series of techniques rather than a one technique spotlight which is why you will find so few videos listed here.
Click the names of techniques (or martial art styles) to see video of the corresponding techniques.
I will list the names of Japanese counterparts for the Hapkido techniques that I know.
Hapkido techniques termanology:
Outside Wrist twist lock throw
Gwan Jeol Gi Beop (Joint locking method) Hankido
Kwanjulki Bub (Joint locking method ) alt. spelling Hankido
Boo Chae (Fan) World Hapkido Association
Son Mok Su #4 (Wrist Technique) Jung Ki Kwan Hapkido
Sin Moo Hapkido
Japanese Equivalent - Kotegaeshi (Aikido) / Omote Kote Gyaku (Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu)
Corkscrew wrist lock throw
Yock Boo Chae (Reverse Fan) World Hapkido Association
Son Mok Su #5 (Wrist Technique) Jung Ki Kwan
4 Direction Throw across body (omote/outside)
Hei Jun (Rotation) World Hapkido Association
Japanese Equivalent - katae dori Shionage omote (Aikido)
4 Direction Throw inside (ura/inside)
Yock Hei Jun (Reverse Rotation) World Hapkido Association
Japanese Equivalent - katae dori Shionage ura (Aikido)
The Vine or Elbow pointed north lock
Yun Hang or Yung Hang (Arrest) World Hapkido Association
Nae We Gi Beop (Inside Outside method) Hankido
Japanese Equivalent - Sankyo (Aikido) Sankajo (Daito ryu Aikijujutsu)
Pal Kum Chi (Elbow) World Hapkido Association
Sin Moo Hapkido
Japanese Equivalent - Ikkyo (Aikido) Ikkajo (Daito ryu Aikijujutsu)
Devil Horns Wrist Lock or S-Lock
Son Mok Kuk Gi (Wrist Manipulation) World Hapkido Association
Japanese Equivalent - Nikyo(Aikido) Nikajo (Daito ryu Aikijujutsu)
Head over Heels throw
Hwe Jeon Tu Beop - (turn around throwing method) Hankido
Batjul dun chi gi (rope throw) My translation
International Hapkido Alliance?
Jin Jung Kwan Hapkido
? (?) Sin Moo Hapkido
To be continued................
Below is a video of GM In Hyuk Suh doing Son Mok Soo (wrist techniques) 1-11
Here are the nicknames I came up with for the techniques. By giving these techniques names it helped me learn better and communicate with classmates about what we were doing (whipthrow from a punch, whipthrow from wrist grab, whipthrow from defensive position...etc).
Here is the list:
1. Knifehand Armbar (some people already use this)
2. Palm up lock (crappy name I know)
3. Inside Whipthrow
4. Police Lock
5. Hip throw
6. Reverse Hip throw
7. Otoshi varation elbow break (?)
8. Head over Heels throw
10. Lock & Drop
11. Devil Horns Wrist Lock
This is an awesome post Doom. Surprising amount of work in a few hours. I have seen these techniques in my lineage as well, but not all are referred to by a name regularly. The syllabus is a little guarded. The ones that stand out to me are the elbow press (arm bar) which we refer to as Kalakki, the outside wrist lock (break/throw) we refer to as Goki, and the Whipthrow (a lock/throw I'm very familiar with) which is taught earlier in curriculum for us from a same side wrist grab we refer to as Nae Hae Jin. I'm only a year into this school, and Hapkido in general, so this is something I'm still fairly green in but I will continue to research myself as our history is also a great interest of mine. I definitely appreciate your work on this and look forward to more.