Not speaking for Iron Ox, but in my opinion it isn't a matter for the use of the word 'fraud'. GM JI doesn't fit that descriptor. He has skill(s) which could be demonstrated. Apparently, he also was/is a very good teacher and has/does offer something that is lasting the test of time. To me, a fraud would be someone with little experience printing out a 10th Dan cert on the computer. Or charging for certificates in an organization they don't represent. Things of that nature.
I think the question was whether one could be an 8th Dan in as little as 16 (or 18) years. The answer to that obviously will change from the perspective of the person answering. To be fair, at that time it may have been considered necessary in order to establish a hierarchy within the art and/or an particular organization. Glenn could probably answer that question.
My only caveat would be that if one accepts this duration, for that rank, then they should be fair and balanced across the board when considering others time/rank.
I was only commenting on the word 'fraud' since it had been brought up and offered an opinion as to if it applied to this situation.
I'd still like to know;
I think it is interesting to note that this questions hasn't been touched in several days. It is a simple question.Did Mr. PARK Jong Kyu have Hapkido training? Or was this an administrative posting via the government to regulate the KHA?
I think it is also interesting to note the lack of a level playing field.
I agree. To take it further, I have seen people overlook what could be seen as questionable, if it is someone they like while at the same time 'question' or comment negatively on those they don't like, even if the person they don't like exceeds the standards of the one they do like. On top of this, they may or may not truly know the level of skill of the one(s) they question or negatively comment on. They may actually know nothing first-hand about them. This is why I commented on the lack of a level playing field. It is a double-standard.I don't necessarily believe that training with someone once or twice can tell you about their true level of skill overall.
Originally Posted by iron_ox
Glenn, you posted Ji got an 8th Dan in 1967 - simple question, who issued it??
I suppose this is okay, though perhaps a bit odd. One typically thinks of someone of greater experience, or at least higher rank being the issuing athority in such things. I'm not indicating this is wrong or that there is a problem with it. I know that the Japanese ministry did something similar decades earlier when looking into officially sanctioning karate in Japan. I guess it all boils down to the value that one places on the certification that is issued by a governing authority.
My thanks to everyone that has participated in this thread. It has proven enlightening.
Interesting tidbit that was passed on to me; according to Scott Shaw;
http://www.tkd-hapkido.com/hapkido_history.htmThe reason President Park was so in favor of this new organization was, in no small part, due to the fact that Park, Jong Kyu, a student of Ji, Han Jae and head of the Presidential Protective Forces, was an instrumental element in its formation. In 1973 Ji, Han Jae resigned from this organization, with the hopes of taking many of its members with him and bringing them to a new organization he was instrumental in creating: The Republic of Korea Hapkido Association.
This would seem to put the student ranking the teacher???
We've already had a few posts from this thread brought to our attention. Lets keep the thread on topic please. I realize that some may disagree with other members posts. Disagreement is part of life. No need to publically air this stuff in the forum.
MT Asst. Admin
I can only go on the information provided in the original post, but if this is the same 10th dan from 1983 (it might not be) then it appears that rank was garnered again from a student.
Now that is interesting huh?
Assuming the wiki is correct.
Maybe there was another 10th dan issued by another person or group.
Last edited by iron_ox; 03-05-2012 at 08:49 PM.
Looking back over this thread has been highly interesting. And I would prefer the thread to be fair and balanced. By this, I mean, that in no way am I suggesting GM JI has done anything wrong. Many could see his rise to 8th and 9th Dan as being far too short a time. But that begs the question of what is the standard they are judging the time by i.e. what ruler are you using to measure? I could also see a student ranking him if the student(s) were placed in positions of authority within or at the top of a specific organization. Now, I can't say where or not this was a 'good-ole-boy' promotion or not as I wasn't there and don't know the specifics. Others would have to offer their input if they have some factual information.
Another consideration is that the KHF may have shorter TIG requirements as a whole than what is 'typically' thought of for the martial arts. And this is fine as well as they are their own governing authority and can set standards as they see fit. I don't know what their TIG standards are so I'd like to ask someone who would know i.e. puunui. If I remember correctly, you are a 9th Dan in this organization under GM JI (or you were under him at some point). Simply asked, how long did it take you to earn your 9th Dan? How long had you been training in Hapkido prior to earning this rank? Could this be considered an average time for Hapkido students in this organization? Thank you.
Taking a look at this again, from another perspective. Uechi Kannei Sensei didn't adopt the Dan/Kyu system until the mid 50's. By this time, he probably had at or around 30 years of training and teaching experience. I'd have to go back and check the dates, but I'm pretty close. Senior students (ones that had trained under Uechi Kanbun Sensei) only went to 4th or 5th Dan when the Dan/Kyu system was implemented. Many of which probably had more than 20 years of training. They didn't seem to be as interested in 'rank' in Okinawa or at this time as later day Korea appears to be. Perhaps 16-18 years would better warrant a 5th Dan...perhaps maybe a 6th Dan if somewhat traditional standards are being adhered to in the art.
Again, just looking at it from a different perspective i.e. different art/culture/era.
I'm still curious as to the TIG guidelines of those under GM Ji to see if they were also of much shorter duration than what one would consider 'traditional' or 'standard'. I'm disappointed that this information hasn't been offered by those here with first hand knowledge i.e. trained under GM JI and/or belong to the same organizations and/or are of comparable rank. It would help to make a good comparison of standards within this branch of the art.
At any rate, it is very interesting to compare and contrast cultures/arts/eras etc with the information that we do have on hand. Gives one some historical perspective and insight. I like this sort of thing.
When Choi was teaching, he refered to his art as Yawara. It was Ji who named his art Hapkido. I believe Ji was ranked to 3rd Dan by Choi, but the art of Hapkido and subsequently Sin Moo Hapkido was developed by Ji. The Danjun breathing, special kicking techniques, and some of the more philosophical charateristics were all incorporated by Ji. Therefore it is par for the course that he would be a high rank, at a young age, because he created the art.
My Hapkido teacher. Massan Ghorbani began his Hapkido training in , I believe 1991 or 1992, by 1996 he was promoted to 6th Dan. A similar time frame can be seen with Jurg Ziegler of Switzerland. Both of these gentlemen are now 10th Dan, and, along with GM Young and GM McKenzie will ensure the art survives into the next generation as Ji envisions it.
I have been an uke for Ji, and I can tell you that he is powerful and still makes an effort to train, even in his advanced age.