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Thread: JKD vs. MMA

  1. #31
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    Re: JKD vs. MMA

    Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back. – Bruce Lee


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    Re: JKD vs. MMA

    I think the danger is in looking at the nomenclature almost as brand names. JKD appears to be more selective in what its senior practitioners take from other arts and methods, in fact I would venture that not just 'anyone' can take something from elsewhere and still call their JKD 'JKD', because 'something' still has to define JKD as JKD and set it apart from other modern arts.

    Also, whilst MMA overwhelming screams 'SPORT', it is not as simple as that. Looking at interviews with the UK and rest of worlds top martial arts teachers, there seem to be a lot of them who teach what they now call MMA, regardless of what the original background was, but that they tailor the material and training methodolgy depending upon what the student wants from their training, and will adapt to the professional cage fighter, law enforcement professional, military personnel, and those simply looking for 'high percentage' (of success in application) self defence methods.

    It is also true that not only are individuals seeking out this kind of approach, but also, probably because of the high public exposure of cage fighting, so are professional bodies. And because more and more young men will be seeking to emulate their UFC heroes late on a Friday night whilst full of beer, cocaine and bravado, it isn't such a bad idea for the police and those of us who venture out as civilians, to know how to deal with double leg takedowns and being ground and pounded, (to use their parlance).

    You could (and I believe I did) argue that the FMA aspects highlight most of the differences between what is [generally] defined as JKD or MMA, but then we have the Dog Bros, who mix it all up and confuse matters even further. It occurs to me that JKD practioners have a venue with Dog Bros, which may mean that they really need not hold back on much of their material and still test it in a live, fairly dangerous but rarely seriously injurious, manner. And it is not necessarily a young man's game either, looking at some of the participants, including the Bros themselves, and this is another important factor in the 'Vs' argument. Sports martial arts are almost entirely the domain of young strong fit able bodies males, whereas martial arts for self preservation are often sought and practiced by those who do not fall into this category but don't want to curl up and hope for the best if they are assaulted on the street.

    Not going down the old argument route of MMA sports not allowing eye gouging etc, because an MMAist is more than capable of throwing the rulebook out when need be, and many will not be dissuaded by a poke in the eye in any case, but it is the nastiness of real martial methods for use in life threatening situations, that even up the odds and make the difference between sport and combat arts, even though there are people who would do well in either camp. Real martial arts is about doing whatever is necessary and escalating the level of violence to negate the threat, and staying ahead of the game by learning to deal with whatever is currently 'popular' in a simple effective manner. Most of the time, looking at some of these MMA guys, my method will involve apologising profusely, offering to buy them a drink, and then disappearing as quickly as possible, probably without buying that drink.
    Martial arts don't fight, systems don't fight, techniques don't fight. Bodies (and minds) fight, and only in a finite number of ways.

  3. #33
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    Re: JKD vs. MMA

    As has always happened there are people who are wannabes, and its them not the MMA people themselves who are more liable to cause problems with fighting on 'on the street'. It's not a new thing, I remember the kickboxing phase, where everyone was a kickboxer, I remember too the kungfu phase. It's these wannabes who will be drunk, drugged etc and wanting to emulate their UFC 'heroes' not the MMA fighters themselves. To label all of us MMAers as potential thugs is harsh. The chances of these people who look to do takedowns etc in a street situation being actually in training is very low, they see it on the television and think they can do it. No one takes people to the floor in a serious fight outside training or competition.
    I fight. Not simply with my opponent. I fight with the demons of doubt. With my exhaustion, with my past failures, with my injuries, with my anonymity, with the unrelenting voice that tells me to stop. But I am a fighter. And one thing is sure. I will be victorious.

    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/980/743/044/



  4. #34
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    Re: JKD vs. MMA

    Quote Originally Posted by Tez3 View Post
    The chances of these people who look to do takedowns etc in a street situation being actually in training is very low, they see it on the television and think they can do it. No one takes people to the floor in a serious fight outside training or competition.
    Are you insinuating that all takedowns are useless in a "street" scenario?
    A goal is not always meant to be reached, it often serves simply as something to aim at.

    - Bruce Lee

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    Re: JKD vs. MMA

    We have something in England (and five other nations) called a Rugby Tackle, it is similar to something you might see in American Football but without the padding or helmets, although the players are of comparable size and strength to their US counterparts (although far uglier, but that's due to not wearing a helmet!)

    The Rugby Tackle is very common in street altercations, often delivered from the side or rear, as in the game in which it is employed, and which is very difficult to defend against, and is arguably as effective as any martial arts takedown.

    Worth thinking about perhaps.
    Martial arts don't fight, systems don't fight, techniques don't fight. Bodies (and minds) fight, and only in a finite number of ways.

  6. #36
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    Re: JKD vs. MMA

    Hello Everyone,

    Bruce Lee is considered the Father of MMA because he advocated a number things that would later make up his JKD. Some of these things were borrowed by MMA practitioners.

    Bruce advocated - Fighting in all ranges.
    Many systems years ago were specialists in 1 or 2 ranges. Some Styles were great at long range with kicks, Some were good at the punching or mid range, some at close range and others excelled at ground work. Some were good at punching and kicking, some at punching and close range and some at close range or grappling range.
    MMA has looked to kicking arts like Muy Thai for long range techniques, boxing for punching range, originally Wing Chun for the trapping or close range (but this has largely been dropped) and BJJ for the grappling range. No on prior to Bruce was doing this far as I know. Then again maybe someone was already head of the game but didn't have Bruce's notoriety.

    Bruce advocated - Making trainings alive and emphasized sparring so that practitioners would learn to apply their techniques in a more realistic fashion against a non cooperative opponent. In this way you can try your art under pressure, learn and work on distance & timing, etc.

    Bruce advocated - absorbing what is useful and discarding what is useless. This however is largely misunderstood. Many think this mean take any technique and combine it how you like and if you like it and if you can make it work for you then great. This however will not make what you do JKD. It might make it MMA but not JKD. First how do you determine what to absorb and what to discard? That's the missing key. Yes Bruce researched many styles but he didn't take just anything. He researched many arts and ran them through a filter, to remove what was useless. That filter is 4 main principles of JKD which are Simple Direct Economical & Non Telegraphic. If you what you abosrb from other systems does not follow these 4 principle as a guide it is not JKD.

  7. #37
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    Re: JKD vs. MMA

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruenewald View Post
    Are you insinuating that all takedowns are useless in a "street" scenario?


    Oh do read my words.
    I said the people who will try takedowns on the street as a first line thing won't be people who train martial arts as they know that they don't want to go to the ground if they can help it. As Elftengu correctly says a lot of the 'takedowns' here will be the rugger tackle. Takedowns aren't useless if you mean do they work, of course they do but they aren't what you want if you can avoid it. Rolling around on the floor leaves you open to being kicked in the head by 'spectators' etc, as well as rolling around in blood, snot, stale booze, dog mess, broken glass, etc etc. If you can, you want to be standing up, if you can put someone on the floor without going down yourself which being small hardly ever happens for me then take them down but otherwise stay up or preferably get the hell out.

    Please don't use the word insinunating to me as I always say what I mean, often to others discomfort but I don't insinuate anything.


    MAsponge, you may consider Bruce Lee the father of MMA but we don't, not putting him down but there was MMA/Vale Tudo long before he was born and the idea of mixing martial arts to be effective didn't come with him either. MMA has many karateka as well as TKD in it for the kicking and punching in it not just MT, it also has Judo, Juijitsu and wrestling as well as BJJ. There has been much down before Bruce to put 'aliveness' into martial arts, he was good but not the first.
    I fight. Not simply with my opponent. I fight with the demons of doubt. With my exhaustion, with my past failures, with my injuries, with my anonymity, with the unrelenting voice that tells me to stop. But I am a fighter. And one thing is sure. I will be victorious.

    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/980/743/044/



  8. #38
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    Re: JKD vs. MMA

    Quote Originally Posted by ElfTengu View Post
    We have something in England (and five other nations) called a Rugby Tackle, it is similar to something you might see in American Football but without the padding or helmets, although the players are of comparable size and strength to their US counterparts (although far uglier, but that's due to not wearing a helmet!)

    The Rugby Tackle is very common in street altercations, often delivered from the side or rear, as in the game in which it is employed, and which is very difficult to defend against, and is arguably as effective as any martial arts takedown.

    Worth thinking about perhaps.
    Having grown up in a lower middle class rural area dominated by highschool American football, and having been the unfortunate participant in a few brawls as a youth, and a more fortunate observer of far more, I can assure you that method of fighting is pretty much the same here, and I can vouch for it's effectiveness...........broadside and drive in to the ground, then pound accordingly.
    "One cannot legislate the maniacs off the street... these maniacs can only be shut down by an armed citizenry." -Col. Jeff Cooper (10 May 1920- 25 Sept. 2006)

    "No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full."
    Lucius Cornelius Sulla

  9. #39
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    Re: JKD vs. MMA

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtmac_46 View Post
    Having grown up in a lower middle class rural area dominated by highschool American football, and having been the unfortunate participant in a few brawls as a youth, and a more fortunate observer of far more, I can assure you that method of fighting is pretty much the same here, and I can vouch for it's effectiveness...........broadside and drive in to the ground, then pound accordingly.
    Yeah, great fun

    Mind, what I can't stand dealing with is drunken women! I'd rather deal with a drunk guy anytime. They don't alternatively try to hit you then cry all over you then try to rake you with their nails nor do men scream at you in that drunk high pitched voice. And somehow men swearing at you while still offensive is never as bad as a woman using the 'c' word etc.

    Anyway, I still maintain that on the ground ain't where you want to be if you can help it. Trouble is fights are never 'ideal' lol so you have to deal with whatever comes up. Here MMa helps as you have so many techniques your opponent can use, ground, floor locks etc that it does keep you using your mind, I've heard MMA being described as physical chess, thinking under pressure, got to be good.
    I fight. Not simply with my opponent. I fight with the demons of doubt. With my exhaustion, with my past failures, with my injuries, with my anonymity, with the unrelenting voice that tells me to stop. But I am a fighter. And one thing is sure. I will be victorious.

    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/980/743/044/



  10. #40
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    Re: JKD vs. MMA

    Quote Originally Posted by Tez3 View Post
    Yeah, great fun

    Mind, what I can't stand dealing with is drunken women! I'd rather deal with a drunk guy anytime. They don't alternatively try to hit you then cry all over you then try to rake you with their nails nor do men scream at you in that drunk high pitched voice. And somehow men swearing at you while still offensive is never as bad as a woman using the 'c' word etc.

    Anyway, I still maintain that on the ground ain't where you want to be if you can help it. Trouble is fights are never 'ideal' lol so you have to deal with whatever comes up. Here MMa helps as you have so many techniques your opponent can use, ground, floor locks etc that it does keep you using your mind, I've heard MMA being described as physical chess, thinking under pressure, got to be good.
    I will say that quite often you want to avoid the ground if you can.

    I do find that taking suspects to the ground to restrain and control them is quite effective, when I decide to initiate the takedown.....but one does want to have the presence of backup, especially if there are other subjects standing around, because you're very vulnerable to interested third parties while on the ground, obviously.

    The pluses to being on the ground in that context is that most folks, even those who follow combat sports, are really clueless on the ground, and fairly easily controlled. Even the MMA guys I know who actually compete I can fairly easily control on the ground, as most of them have limited ground skills picked up after about 6 months of very basic BJJ.

    It's just not an area most folks are competent in, even those who are familiar with the fact that there are ground techniques. Knowing those techniques exist, and even what some of them are, are not match for knowing how to distribute your weight and leverage on the ground, and you only get that by grappling experience.

    But your point is still valid, that it should be avoided, generally, due to the vulnerability to third parties and environmental concerns.
    "One cannot legislate the maniacs off the street... these maniacs can only be shut down by an armed citizenry." -Col. Jeff Cooper (10 May 1920- 25 Sept. 2006)

    "No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full."
    Lucius Cornelius Sulla

  11. #41
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    Re: JKD vs. MMA

    Quote Originally Posted by MASponge1 View Post
    Hello Everyone,

    Bruce Lee is considered the Father of MMA because he advocated a number things that would later make up his JKD. Some of these things were borrowed by MMA practitioners.
    As Tez pointed out, there are some flaws in this idea. And I don't think it's accurate to say that MMA borrowed these ideas. Nobody had a monopoly on them. Lee definitely swam against the tide, but he certainly wasn't the only one.

    Bruce advocated - Fighting in all ranges.
    As has been brought up before, Greek pankration (as just one example) was doing kicking, punching, and grappling long, long before Lee started talking about it. Champions were crosstrained in wrestling and boxing.

    Many systems years ago were specialists in 1 or 2 ranges. Some Styles were great at long range with kicks, Some were good at the punching or mid range, some at close range and others excelled at ground work. Some were good at punching and kicking, some at punching and close range and some at close range or grappling range.
    And many at least paid lip service to most of the above.

    MMA has looked to kicking arts like Muy Thai for long range techniques, boxing for punching range, originally Wing Chun for the trapping or close range (but this has largely been dropped) and BJJ for the grappling range. No on prior to Bruce was doing this far as I know. Then again maybe someone was already head of the game but didn't have Bruce's notoriety.
    MMA has never, in my view, looked to wing chun for trapping. There have been one or two wing chun-trained fighters in MMA events. Particularly early on. But, having only seen their appearances in early UFC, they didn't make a favourable impression. Interpret that however you will.

    Bruce advocated - Making trainings alive and emphasized sparring so that practitioners would learn to apply their techniques in a more realistic fashion against a non cooperative opponent. In this way you can try your art under pressure, learn and work on distance & timing, etc.
    Boxers, wrestlers, savateurs, fencers... were already doing that.

    Bruce advocated - absorbing what is useful and discarding what is useless. This however is largely misunderstood. Many think this mean take any technique and combine it how you like and if you like it and if you can make it work for you then great. This however will not make what you do JKD. It might make it MMA but not JKD. First how do you determine what to absorb and what to discard? That's the missing key. Yes Bruce researched many styles but he didn't take just anything. He researched many arts and ran them through a filter, to remove what was useless. That filter is 4 main principles of JKD which are Simple Direct Economical & Non Telegraphic. If you what you abosrb from other systems does not follow these 4 principle as a guide it is not JKD.
    This I mostly agree with. You did say "if you can make it work... " And I think that's the built-in filter of MMA. If you can make it work in a bout, then good on you. That doesn't necessarily mean it will become a standard part of any "standard MMA curriculum." We've seen fighters like Cung Le and George St. Pierre pull off spinning back kicks in the ring lately. But I don't see those catching on as a standard part of MMA training.

    I do think that something needs to fit within a conceptual framework to be called JKD. It's not enough to simply say "I've absorbed this from my studies of X, therefore it's part of my JKD." That said, the principles and concepts are broad reaching and flexible enough that there's still a fair amount of room for debate about how those concepts are applied in making determinations.


    Stuart

  12. #42
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    Re: JKD vs. MMA

    Reading Iain Abernethy's book 'Throws for Strikers' I was surprised to learn that boxing before the Queensberry rules had throws, kicks and some groundwork in. I think human nature tells us that fighters must have been doing all this since fighting began. There's nothing new under the sun so I'd be very surprised if no one had done standup, groundwork etc all in one fight before Bruce Lee came along.

    I don't do JKD but am I correct in thinking it's stances are those of CMA, toes turned more inward than the 'boxing' or karate stances? The punching I think too seems different, fists with thumbs on top that type of thing?
    I fight. Not simply with my opponent. I fight with the demons of doubt. With my exhaustion, with my past failures, with my injuries, with my anonymity, with the unrelenting voice that tells me to stop. But I am a fighter. And one thing is sure. I will be victorious.

    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/980/743/044/



  13. #43
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    Re: JKD vs. MMA

    Hey You guys are absolutely right.
    I don't care if Bruce is the father of MMA or not. Dana White said he was. Some agree, some don't. I was just stating why some, who believe this, think this.

    Yep there were other systems long before Bruce that fought in the ranges. However during his time period where he lived, the popular systems of the day, according to him didn't. So he spoke up and said something about it.
    Also Bruce has often said what he does is nothing new.

    It's good you guys have brought these things to light.

  14. #44
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    Re: JKD vs. MMA

    Wow. Off this forum for a while now. It's like I haven't left!

    How's everything guys and gals?
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  15. #45
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    Re: JKD vs. MMA

    Quote Originally Posted by Tez3 View Post
    Oh do read my words.
    I said the people who will try takedowns on the street as a first line thing won't be people who train martial arts as they know that they don't want to go to the ground if they can help it. As Elftengu correctly says a lot of the 'takedowns' here will be the rugger tackle. Takedowns aren't useless if you mean do they work, of course they do but they aren't what you want if you can avoid it. Rolling around on the floor leaves you open to being kicked in the head by 'spectators' etc, as well as rolling around in blood, snot, stale booze, dog mess, broken glass, etc etc. If you can, you want to be standing up, if you can put someone on the floor without going down yourself which being small hardly ever happens for me then take them down but otherwise stay up or preferably get the hell out.

    Please don't use the word insinunating to me as I always say what I mean, often to others discomfort but I don't insinuate anything.
    Sorry, but straight shooters are hard to come by. I read your first statement about people who aren't trained trying to do techniques that will obviously fail in a street scenario due to their inexperience, but it was mainly the part where you said "No one takes people to the floor in a serious fight outside training or competition" that I was responding to. I know what you mean about not taking people to the floor, but I wasn't sure if by "taking to the floor" you meant any throw that involved the opponent ending on the ground. Because there are a good number of throws that end in a very strong position (often with follow-ups into submissions/striking opportunities to vitals such as the throat).
    A goal is not always meant to be reached, it often serves simply as something to aim at.

    - Bruce Lee

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