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Thread: Korean Jingum vs Japanese Shinken: similarities and differences?

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    Korean Jingum vs Japanese Shinken: similarities and differences?

    This thread is broken off from the discussion on Cold Steel katana-like swords, so as not to derail the original thread. The original thread (and post) may be found here.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonpalombi View Post
    Hey Ninjamom,
    Say, do Haedong Gumdo practitioners strictly adhere to cutting with Korean-forged jingum or is it acceptable to use Japanese-style shinken? And if so, how are the many forges in China, offering katanas at affordable price-points (like Hanwei, Huanuo, Last Legend, Dynasty Forge and Cold Steel), viewed by the HDGD folks and even the KSA community at large? Don't get me wrong, I love the jingum promoted by Martial Art Swords. I just have a tough time setting that kind of money aside for another cutting sword (these days). Once upon a time it was within my grasp. Once upon a time... Sorry, I digress. Of course, you get what you pay for. For those of you who haven't checked-out their website; http://www.martialartswords.com/index.php?cPath=2_13

    Another question I am wondering about is this, do any contemporary schools of Korean swordsmanship use pre-JSA styled sabers? You know, like the single-handed gum Bruce Sims is often referring to, God bless him. Certainly by the time Japan was invading Korea (1592-1597), warriors like Admiral Yi Soon Shin carried two-handed gum. While the martial-mechanics illustrated in the Muye Dobo Tongji show both single and double-handed methods of swordsmanship, the sword being illustrated is a two-handed, Japanese-influenced saber. Much like the contemporary jingum. Also, is a kagum the same thing as a Japanese iaito? Do Korean schools practice solo sword-drawing, like unto Japanese iaido? Sorry about the 20 questions, after all, we are supposed to be critiquing Cold Steel cutting swords. So where was I? Oh yes, and I still say Hanwei, Last Legend and Huanuo/Dynasty Forge are much better investments. That is, for Chinese versions of Japanese katanas. Anyone out there have any suggestions for Japanese shinken? How do they perform/out-perform the Chinese knock-offs? Has someone had any experience with Both Japanese and Chinese cutters? Or even better, Japanese, Chinese and/or Korean cutters?

    Be well and practice often, Jon Palombi
    Hi, Jon!! Always good to hear from you, and I really miss the folks at the Kingdomfighter forum.

    Wow!! Where to begin?!?!?

    The use of Japanese vs. Korean vs. Chinese swords for the practice of haedong gumdo depends on who you ask and what school/lineage/Federation is under discussion. The largest of the world governing bodies for haedong kumdo (The World Haidong Gumdo Federation, also known as the Daehan Haidong Gumdo Federation) requires the use of Federation swords at all Federation-sponsored events. These Federation swords are made in Korea, are very expensive, and look almost identical to the swords from Martial Art Swords. So, in order to participate in a cutting competition, or to test for any belt requiring bamboo cutting (2nd dan and beyond), you must use a Federation Korean jingum. Technically, you could borrow an approved sword for test or competition day, but of course, this puts all those who do not pony up to buy an approved jingum at a distinct disadvantage.

    Other Federations and individual schools are not as strict. I personally use a Cheness katana (made in China) and at least two of my students use Martial Art Sword jingum (made in Korea). It is the weight, balance, style (of blade and handle), and safety that are most important. Any sword brought in to class must be inspected for safety (cracks in the mekugi or handle, wear or chips in the blade, looseness of the fittings, etc.). I also prefer a sword closer to the Korean style, as it fits in with the techniques and tactics of our art better (this will open another whole can of worms, because there really isn't any one 'standard' for shinken or for jingum, but on average, the jingum tended to be wider out towards the tip and have less curvature).

    About how non-Korean products are viewed: I admit that there are those 'old school' in Korean styles who would rather buy anything Korean than anything from anywhere else. Some instructors buy all (or at least as much as possible) of their uniforms, belts, targets, and even wooden and bamboo swords from Korean sources. (Personally, I fail to see how a stick made in China would be significantly different from a stick made in Japan or Korea, but that is just my opinion ). Some of this is ethnic pride; some of it is based on the fact that many Korean martial arts instructors are also family-oriented business owners, who know many of these suppliers personally and prefer to keep the business "all in the family".

    As far as your question regarding the teaching of Korean arts 'pre-JSA', this is another whole can of worms. Remember that the two cultures grew up side-by-side, with constant interaction through trade and warfare. Their developments in weaponry and tactics often mirrored each other and adapted to each other. So, just as you might be interested in one-handed Korean sabers, you might also look for one-handed Japanese sabers. At one time or another, both cultures used straight, curved, one-handed, and two-handed swords, and swords with one or two edges. Trying to pull a 'purely Korean' art out of the mix (if by that you mean one with no Japanese influence at all) would require going back to 400 AD or so, before there was a Yamato culture. However, there would be no 'purely Japanese' sword arts either, if by that you meant something completely devoid of any Korean or Chinese influence.

    As far as the swords that Bruce Sims (God bless him) talked about, I have two thoughts. First, I think the largest number of surviving Korean swords that predate the Japanese occupation were non-functional. These shorter, one-handed sabers that showed up in photos from the 1800's, as far as I can tell were largely status symbols worn by Yangbang officials. They were too short to be of practical combat value and worn too high up under the arm for easy access or quick draws. Those who wore them were not soldiers or martial artists, as such people where greatly disparaged in Confucian culture.

    Secondly, I think a large number of Korean swords from this time period were worn hanging from a harness (not from the belt) with the blade down. Over half the swords pictured in the Macau museum display on east Asian swords have rings on the scabbard indicating they were worn this way. This was standard for mounted warriors, and shows a stream in Korean swordsmanship that predates interaction with Japan and draws (no pun intended) largely from Mongol influence. There is a modern school of Korean swordsmanship called Choseon Sebup that uses swords hung in this manner, but the drawing and sheathing motions almost all entail rotating the sword and scabbard into the blade-up position, so the drawing and sheathing motions all look identical to JSA iaido forms.

    As far as Korean schools that practice drawing and sheathing as an art, there are only two streams of which I am aware. One is Choson Sebup (mentioned above), but it looks just like iaido to me. The other is Guhapdo, but 'guhapdo' is the Korean word for 'iaido'. The difference is that Choson Sepub claims to be a native Korean art, and Guhapdo acknowledges that it is a Japanese art.

    Is a kagum the same as a iaito? Yes and no. They are the same in purpose. A kagum is a metal sword without a live blade, used for practice and training (just like an iaito). However, the official WDHDGD Federation kagum used to be made of rolled steel, so it was hollow, and heavier than a wooden sword but lighter than a jingum. This made it a good practical transition tool to get used to a heavier weapon while learning the mechanics of sheathing/drawing. The current approved Federation kagum is aluminum, so it is much lighter. It gives audible feedback when a cut is properly alligned, but it is lighter even than some wooden swords (I don't like it at all). For the purist (Sukerkin, please correct me if I am wrong) a real iaito is made of aluminum. I think this has to do with the fact that export of swords from Japan is strictly controlled and limited, so if real steel were used in an iaito, it would take up one of the spots that could have been used to export a real sword. Personally, I use an older Federation (steel) kagum (because it was a gift) and a Cheness iaito (because its weight and balance matches my cutting sword) in practice.

    As far as how Hanwei, Last Legend, and other Chinese knock-offs compare to the MAS swords, the only thing I would suggest is to find someone who owns one, borrow it, and use it a few times. There is a definite, noticeable difference in quality. The difference is worth the investment, but only if you plan on doing cutting on a regular basis as part of your art/training. I plan on saving up and eventually getting one.

    On a final note, I recommend using care with the drawings in the Muye Dobo Tongji. There is no indication that the wood block carvings were done by a martial artist or anyone with knowledge of the swords and techniques used. In several places, the exact descriptions/sizes of the weapons are given by reading the MYDTJ, but the wood-block pictures all use the same identical-looking sword. This has been a source of great frustration to me, also, because it means I can't rely on the drawings for insight into the stances and motions used in historical Korean sword arts.

    Well, that was a lot of typing practice, if nothing else. All of this is only the "Sword World According to Ninjamom", so your mileage may vary. I hope it helps, or at least, it shoud get the conversation going so others more knowledgeable may add.

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    Re: Korean Jingum vs Japanese Shinken: similarities and differences?

    Ninjamom,

    Thanks for taking the time to post that. There is a lot of good info there to pore over.

    Regarding Guhapdo/Kuhapdo, have you seen any styles of this art in practice? Our Hapkido kwan practices a sword art called Cheong Seok Kuhapdo that is very heavily influenced by the Yamauchi-ha branch of MJER. I'd appreciate hearing about any other Kuhapdo groups you've encountered.

    Most of us get our swords from Korea, from a smith in Seoul (through our teachers in Daegu). They're steel and hand-forged, and very nicely finished. We can get both iaito-type dulled blades and shinken-type cutters. They tend to be pretty heavy swords (my dulled one weighs almost 1,300g).

    btw, since it's obvous that you've read a lot about this subject, you've probably heard that there are reliable historians who say that the smelting and forging technology that created the finest Japanese katana of yesteryear came originally from Korea.

    That would be a nice subject for somebody's Ph.D dissertation.

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    Re: Korean Jingum vs Japanese Shinken: similarities and differences?

    Quote Originally Posted by howard View Post
    ...there are reliable historians who say that the smelting and forging technology that created the finest Japanese katana of yesteryear came originally from Korea.

    That would be a nice subject for somebody's Ph.D dissertation.
    Ooooo!!! Dr. Ninjamom! I like the sound of that!!

    I think you are right - it would make a great PhD dissertation (then two years later someone else could do their PhD dissertation refuting it )

    Regarding Guhapdo, some of the finest examples I have personally seen are actually from a Korean 7th Dan Grandmaster Kendoka who teaches in New Jersey at Sung Moo Kwan.

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    Re: Korean Jingum vs Japanese Shinken: similarities and differences?

    Sorry to dredge up a very old post. I just wanted to say that I was about to post a question about Korean swords and instead decided to use the search function and read old posts and sure enough all the answers were already here.

    I love Martial Talk!

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