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Thread: Bagua Zhang

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    Bagua Zhang

    After years of Karate etc I have decided to look for something from the internal arts of China.
    At first i thought i would go for tai chi chuan but to be honest its just too... not for me. Hsing-i, no, way off the mark (for me). Im sure they are awesome arts but not for me.

    Then i found something i had never even heard of before. So, putting my computer to work i gathered as much info on Bagua as i could find.
    Remember, i had no idea of what is what and lineage etc.

    First impressions were not great lol, but i was attracted to the circular forms even though they came in so many variations. At first i thought they were all doing basically the same forms but at diff levels or something.

    So i actually dismissed most versions and set about looking for a single strain. To be completely honest, lineage did not gaurantee anything (to my beginners eye) at the time.

    These were a few of my observasions (Take note, these are beginners eyes to Bagua and mean no disrespect whatsoever, just personal views of what i saw at the time)

    I was thinking "what the heck is this B.Frantzis doing". Dont like his version of it at all, but i could certainly spend an afternoon or two listening to his discussions on Bagua, the I-Ching and Taoism etc".
    Only to learn later that it was Water dragon method and maybe Yin Fu strain?
    Anyway, another was the Gompa? - Shocking, didnt last long looking at that and have no idea of lineage there.. (again, no dissrespect intended)

    Tim Cartmell, good reports all over. Does he do Gao Bagua? I like the look of Gao Bagua if he does.

    Next i came across E.Montaigue. OK so i thought this man was a powerhouse. Plenty of skills and also had 8 Animals forms. Yet doesnt get accepted by some. Later i realised its becouse he said this/that is wrong, yet wasnt those statements within the realm of Tai Chi? What does everyone think of his Bagua? Some discussion over lineage claims there, whats up with that?

    Would i be correct in thinking his circle form is Jiang Rong Chao style, and maybe his 8 Animal forms are from Sun Lu Tang?? (please excuse my spelling of names)

    There is a vid of "Tung Hai Chuan's origional circle form" posted on you-tube under the channel name of "Banjo Billy"! How can that be? As i have learned Tung (Dong?) only taught single - double - and straight palm change? Again, is this more likely to be Jiang Rong Chao's form, as the terminoligy for the movements match what i have researched on Jiang..

    Any help much appreciated, as i dont want to just jump in and not know what is what etc.
    Thanks
    72ronin

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    Re: Bagua Zhang

    I am currently training in Jiulong Baguazhang (the Gompa) through Shifu Dale Dugas:

    www.bostonbaguazhang.com

    I find it to be a very good art and it allows quite a bit of self examination. It does all come down to personal preference, but I have found it rewarding.

    Bobby
    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.George Bernard Shaw

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    Re: Bagua Zhang

    Are you disin XINGYIQUAN and TAIJIQUAN… Why thems fighten words and JUST for that I will see what I can do to help with Baguazhang

    I imagine you have been here already in your research, but this and its links gives you a pretty good idea about Bagua and its history

    Bagua allegedly originated with Dong Haichuan but there is a style called Yin/Yang Bagua that would dispute that. They claim that their style and Dong’s style come from the same Taoist teacher. And from what I have seen of Yin/Yang bagua I really like it, however I do not think there are any (or many) teachers of it outside of Beijing and they will charge a westerner about $149/hr to train it.

    Yin fu was the student who spent the most time with Dong Haichuan and there is a lot to Yin style but very few know all of it

    Various styles of Bagua that come from the students of Dong Haichuan can have other styles that have infuenced them as well. For example Cheng style is bagua combined with a bit of Shuaijiao due to Cheng Tinghua’s prior Shuaijiao training.

    As for anyone claiming to know the original style of, or teach the style of, Dong Haichuan, it is likely sales, fake or they are incredibly misinformed. My first sifu claims to teach it and his students believe that is what they are learning, but what he is teaching is straight out of the college he he got his degree in and it is the contemprary wushu version of baguazhang. I do not believe that anyone truly knows what style would be the exact style of Dong Haichuan. However if I were to speculate I would think (IMO) Yin Style would be closest due to the amount of time that Yin Fu trained with him. There are Yin style groups in the US and europe that are tied to He Jinbao (from Beijing) [Dong Haichuan > Yin Fu > Men Baozhen > Xie Peiqi > He Jinbao - History] Main Yin style page for He Jinbao's group

    As for Gompa I assume you are referring to nine dragon Baguazhang and John Painter. You can talk with Dale Dugas he would be able to answer your questions. I went to a couple of seminars of his teach (John Painter) years ago and I liked the style, it seemed to be rather effective

    I have only done 2 forms from 2 different styles one was Yin style and the other I belevie was Jiang style but I could be wrong about the Jiang style one.

    But you have to understand that if you are going to train a Chinese Internal style, which bagua is, there are no shortcuts and it will take a considerable amount of time.

    Note: in Shanxi style Xingyiquan the advanced form is a tight version of circle walking.
    Last edited by Xue Sheng; 01-22-2010 at 12:00 PM.
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    Re: Bagua Zhang

    Jiulong Baguazhang is a family style.

    If you are interested feel free to pm me here or email me off forum at daledugas@bostonbaguazhang.com

    Jiulong Baguazhang is not only a great health maintenance system, it is very good at dealing with self defense.
    Dr. Dale Dugas, DOM AP Dipl. OM
    Acupuncture Physician & Board Certified Chinese Herbalist
    www.daledugas.com
    www.daledugasherbs.com
    www.ironpalm.net



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    Re: Bagua Zhang

    My sifu teaches Bagua from a couple of different Cheng Ting Hua lineages, lots of intersting stuff on our school site, www.wuji.com. I find everything about it interesting. But keep your eye out, there are plenty of good instructors out there that are not the super famous (i.e. B.K. Frantzis, Earl Montaigue), and lineage does matter, but there are also just as many wushu instructors who claim to teach IMA but teach a modified wushu version and still claim a good lineage.

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    Re: Bagua Zhang

    Thankyou for your replies, as im sure you are aware i dont have enough knowledge or experience within Bagua to state "this is good, thats not".
    So thankyou for your patience in reference to my comments on the Gompa etc.
    I should state that everyone i have looked at looks extremely capable.

    At first i was under the impression that there was only mud stepping, perhaps dragon stepping. Though now i realise there is also Lion and Rooster/Crane stepping. These early mis-conceptions led to my dismissal of some practitioners form.

    My preference is definately for the dragon style of mud stepping.

    I now have more than a passing interest in Bagua and realise that perhaps dvd's wont take me as far as i want to go with this great art.

    So my question is, Does anyone know if the form shown by Jerry Allen Johnson is in fact from Jiang Rong Chao style? i personaly think it is but cant be sure.
    And does anyone know if E.Montaigue's form is also that of Jiang Rong Chao.

    Localy (southern Aust) i have only been able to locate a E.Montaigue school as most if not all others are located on the East coast. If anyone knows of another Bagua available in Adelaide S.A. that would be a great help also, As the school i have found is still some distance away..

    Thanks again
    72ronin

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    Mushi Mushi Re: Bagua Zhang

    Quote Originally Posted by 72ronin View Post
    I now have more than a passing interest in Bagua and realise that perhaps dvd's wont take me as far as i want to go with this great art.

    So my question is, Does anyone know if the form shown by Jerry Allen Johnson is in fact from Jiang Rong Chao style? i personaly think it is but cant be sure.
    And does anyone know if E.Montaigue's form is also that of Jiang Rong Chao.

    Localy (southern Aust) i have only been able to locate a E.Montaigue school as most if not all others are located on the East coast. If anyone knows of another Bagua available in Adelaide S.A. that would be a great help also, As the school i have found is still some distance away..

    Thanks again
    72ronin
    Not being a student of Bagua, I am not sure of the direct lineage for Erle Montaigue but here is the link to his site and profile. http://www.fajing-chuan.co.uk/Erle%20Montaigue.html As far as I can determine, he makes no mention of Jiang Rong Chao in his books. His main teacher was Chang Yiu-chun.
    I have several of his books and a couple of his DVDs which I find very interesting. I would love to have the opportunity to train with him.
    If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't, you're right.

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    Re: Bagua Zhang

    Quote Originally Posted by 72ronin View Post
    And does anyone know if E.Montaigue's form is also that of Jiang Rong Chao.

    72ronin

    Yes;

    He studied Bagua under Jiang Rong Qiao(Chiang Jung Jiao) lineage "via" Ho Ho Choy, atleast whats stated on website, or google it.
    http://www.taiji-qigong.co.uk/Articles/erle.htm

    May not be accurate, as some are debating this. So for both sides here's an alternate view;
    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...read.php?t=328

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    Re: Bagua Zhang

    Interesting thread. How about the Gracies issuing a challenge to Erle ! . Are there anyone they did not challenge lol.

    I suspect they wanted to fight their way, protected by rules etc, if they allowed a true anything goes there would be a blind and possibly brain damaged Gracie walking around today i dare say
    Dont get me wrong, they have great sport Ju Jitsu, but with no rules its a different ballgame.

    Lineage.. Important-yes, but i would want to question Ho Ho Choy about it before Erle. The saying goes "dont shoot the middleman".. Well in this case (the interpreter) lets hunt down and shoot the middleman LOL.

    I may go with Erle's Bagua i think. Its the closest school to me and i prefer Jiangs form.
    Im still interested if anyone knows of Bagua within the area of Adelaide though as that would be closer to me.

    I'll check his site again, give him an Email and go from there.
    thanks again for your help.
    72ronin

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    Re: Bagua Zhang

    Quote Originally Posted by 72ronin View Post
    ....... Hsing-i, no, way off the mark (for me). Im sure they are awesome arts but not for me.......
    Realize that some teachers will teach linear (line based) Bagua that many assume to be to Hsing-I.

    I study and practice Cheng and Liang style Bagua.

    All of the Cheng style that I study and practice is circular (8 step circle).

    All of the Liang style that I study and practice is linear (although the feet appear to be moving in a line there are circles still in play).

    Some also use the terms pre-heaven & post-heaven to differentiate between the two.


    Because of your statement that is quoted, I would encourage you to investigate this aspect as you choose your teacher and begin to follow their curriculum.

    Best of luck.

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    Re: Bagua Zhang

    Thankyou, i was wondering what pre/post heaven was all about.
    And yes it seems that Erle talks of a linear form quite a bit.

    Im only interested in the circle form.
    However at this point if i want to move away from dvd training to live training i have only found a school in S.Aust for the E.Montaigue style.

    Yes, there is no quick road for this type of thing but thats fine with me.
    Thanks
    72ronin

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    Re: Bagua Zhang

    I had considered tuition through video exchange (frowned upon i know) as i am quite busy with Family/work and Karate as it is.

    There was a "Dragongate Sanctuary" site and a few others that i considered. But i have become accustom to Jiangs form and wish to continue with that.

    Long distance training isnt ideal for the internal arts i know, but i am open to any suggestions lol..

    Access to a teacher may be the deciding factor if i wish to attain "live" training.
    thanks again
    72ronin

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    Re: Bagua Zhang

    Worth a look at if you're interested in Ba Gua:

    http://www.tombisio.com/

    http://www.tombisio.com/martial.htm

    http://www.tombisio.com/publications.htm

    Gao Ji Wu also has a couple of books coming out and Tom has a couple of Ba Gua DVD's coming out in February.

    Best,

    Steve

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    Re: Bagua Zhang

    OK, so ive found some great sources for info on history of Bagua, like the Bagua Journal and so on.

    Then i came across a different take on what seems to be the accepted norm, i think it was chinahand or something like that, wait maybe it was the Bagua research institute from China.. Im going from memory here lol, anyway they say there was,

    Not only Tung Hai Chuan but two others like him, and that Tung was more popular and Bagua spread that way.!?!
    Just when i thought i had it nailed that Tung adapted his circular Taoist training with his martial experience to create Bagua, Then took on students like Cheng, Yi and so on. Letting them adapt their previous experience in similar fasion.
    Are they just creating another "option" for Lineage or what??

    Personaly i think the accepted historical version we all know about is the correct one, anyone heard about this newer take on the history?

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    Re: Bagua Zhang

    The crazy untracable history of Bagua,

    Lets look at the Life of Tung Hai Chuan, which is not his real name mind you - anyway, He goes to the Mountains in the first place for dubious reasons, then he is booted out of the Monastery - for dubious reasons, then he apparently performs a surgery on himself to get into the royal court..

    Then, simply becouse of observed skills over time or apparently during performing services as a waiter, he is asked to perform his martial skills - which suddenly catapult him to trainer to the nobles and guards of said royal court!
    Now, somehow from this, he ends up poor and living in the back of maybe a Yi family members lumberyard.. Then dies only to be buried in a poor grave outside the gates of the city or something..

    Does anyone else think he was used in some way or what lol..

    Becouse apparently back then in Chinese culture, it was all about pride/ego you know like doing anything to "save face". So it was near impossible to simply create your own thing, it had to come from somewhere steeped in tradition and mystery.

    Some people actually believe that Tung was taught by 3 sages living in the mountains during his travels also, see the theme recuring in the different accounts of the history.

    Like then its more believable becouse if you faulter in what your trying to sell, you can simply relly on the fact that its the principals of movement that you were taught and therefor you werent expected to be invincible, but in theory the style still could be..

    I put it to you that a collection of men got together and attempted to create a system of fighting that had a strong Chinese religious theme. There is the history of Bagua zhang.

    I mean its nothing new or unique to China at all for that matter. Ninjutsu discussion anyone lol.
    Take the story of Cheng Ting Hua, one story is that he dies heroicaly taking on german soldiers of the occupying 12 armies or something, by going to the aid of a young chinese person being "handled' innapropriately by ten of the soldiers, concequently fighting them with his double daggers and taking many down before being shot to death..
    Another account is that males between certain ages were being rounded up and he was one of them, resisted, fled and was shot in the back several times attempting to scale a wall fleeing..

    Anyway, i think Bagua's Circle form and some other aspects are close to perfection for fighting and longivity, but wow, what a mysterious history to try and discover

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