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Thread: Qin Na, Throwing and San shou demonstration

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    Qin Na, Throwing and San shou demonstration

    柔拳(Rou Chyuan): Chinese muti-style martial art.

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    Re: Qin Na, Throwing and San shou demonstration

    This is not typical san shou and also not very realistic when it comes to self defense. When you take multiple steps to your attacker's single step, you are already behind on time frame and every step after the first has a greater and greater chance to fail. San Shou and effective Chin Na is more direct and to the point.

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    Re: Qin Na, Throwing and San shou demonstration

    Quote Originally Posted by WC_lun View Post
    This is not typical san shou and also not very realistic when it comes to self defense. When you take multiple steps to your attacker's single step, you are already behind on time frame and every step after the first has a greater and greater chance to fail. San Shou and effective Chin Na is more direct and to the point.
    true. it is not a typical sanshou people seen out there that lots of our Sanshou contain multiple attacks (usually no less than 3 blows), which is a distinct feature of our style

    While one punch can be effective, when they are delivered in volleys of two, three, four, five or six or more they become devastating. Anyone can dodge or slip one punch, but it is a lot more difficult to get out of the way of multiple incoming, well thrown punches in sequence.

    that is if you take multiple steps after opponent's one step, you will have a better chance to hit your opponent.

    and if each follow-up attack is different and consecutive, it is even harder to block.

    however, I agree with your claim about the timing and to the point for Sanshou.

    Therefore, whether it is good or bad really depends on the nature of the Sanshou itself and how one executes it.

    this is my opinion. you don't have to agree with me, just for your reference.

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    Re: Qin Na, Throwing and San shou demonstration

    If some dude charges in from out of kicking range windmilling his arms about , why even bother stepping back , why even bother dealing with his arms at all.
    Just heel kick him straight in the bladder , the range of your leg is longer than his arms.
    Then step down from your kick , do a few hand strikes and then do your throws , diminish the fighters ability to resist with striking before attempting to throw.

    They seem to be going straight from kicking range into throwing range with nothing inbetween as a transition , against someone who knows what they are doing , that will get you your lights punched out quick smart.
    "Opponent attacks, absorb and neutralise blow. Opponent withdraws, pursue and counter. Dis-engage restriction from arms, retaliate with penetrating thrust."

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    Re: Qin Na, Throwing and San shou demonstration

    I find it difficult to grasp demos out of context. Are they showing "how to defend" or "how to throw"? If the former, then yes, the technique seems to be deficient. If the latter, then I can understand why they might want to leave out the transition to isolate the showing of the throw. But if that were true, the punching charge should also be left out, and maybe the demo should start with a close-range altercation. I don't know much about fighting, but I think I know a little bit about teaching a concept.

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    Re: Qin Na, Throwing and San shou demonstration

    Any decent video someone can point me to? Always been interesting about the art.
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    Re: Qin Na, Throwing and San shou demonstration

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoran View Post
    Any decent video someone can point me to? Always been interesting about the art.
    Zoran, do a search on Cung Le's san shou matches. He was the best in the world at it and his san shou was text book perfect. Keep in mind when watching his matches that his opponents are resisiting and not just standing there, letting the time frame stretch on into eternity. That will change the perspective of what he is doing a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WC_lun View Post
    Zoran, do a search on Cung Le's san shou matches. He was the best in the world at it and his san shou was text book perfect. Keep in mind when watching his matches that his opponents are resisiting and not just standing there, letting the time frame stretch on into eternity. That will change the perspective of what he is doing a bit.
    Thanks I'll check it out.

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    Re: Qin Na, Throwing and San shou demonstration

    Quote Originally Posted by mook jong man View Post
    If some dude charges in from out of kicking range windmilling his arms about , why even bother stepping back , why even bother dealing with his arms at all.
    Just heel kick him straight in the bladder , the range of your leg is longer than his arms.
    Then step down from your kick , do a few hand strikes and then do your throws , diminish the fighters ability to resist with striking before attempting to throw.

    They seem to be going straight from kicking range into throwing range with nothing inbetween as a transition , against someone who knows what they are doing , that will get you your lights punched out quick smart.
    there seems to be some misunderstandings here. first, i wanna clarify on the definition of Sanshou. Sanshou散手 in Chinese means combo attack, but it seems like people nowadays have used it interchangeably with the word Sanda散打, a Chinese combat sport.

    the first three strikes in the first demo is just the routine in the throwing form. when it comes to real fight, that is of course not the way how it should be done as you mentioned. the focus is more on thrwoing in that portion of the demonstration.

    thank you for pointint it out anyway.

    A self defence video of mster Chung for your reference:

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    Re: Qin Na, Throwing and San shou demonstration

    Sanshou doesn't mean combo attack. San=free or loose Shou=hand. Liang shou Yu says the San means random and Shou means hand. Both events are describing free fighting or sparring. I think the video is flashy not practical and looks more like hapkido than San Shou. Sanshou is known for its very distinct
    Throws. The qin na looks like hapkido maybe its the uniforms.
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    Re: Qin Na, Throwing and San shou demonstration

    When combined with other characters, this particular san is defined by Collins as loose, messy, slack or prose. Free and random should also fit. It could also be interpreted as non-ordered, non-regulated, improvised, non-scripted.

    Kinda like free sparring, I guess.

    But as for san da, the "da" is translated as "beat", as in "hit". It could be "free bout", as in a fighting event. It could also be an idiom, without much meaning when its components are separated. Oh, well.
    Last edited by mograph; 06-15-2012 at 09:11 AM.

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    Re: Qin Na, Throwing and San shou demonstration

    Quote Originally Posted by oaktree View Post
    Sanshou doesn't mean combo attack. San=free or loose Shou=hand. Liang shou Yu says the San means random and Shou means hand. Both events are describing free fighting or sparring. I think the video is flashy not practical and looks more like hapkido than San Shou. Sanshou is known for its very distinct
    Throws. The qin na looks like hapkido maybe its the uniforms.
    I search randomly on youtube for Sanshou散手 video and here are what I found.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTxPVp9flzA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx7YhLqWQdQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCwT-eaMWYM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LG3MAfTIcQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5H25Ivv6H8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwrwULWDXeY

    In our style, we have many different styles of Sanshou. The Sanshou in the video is just one of the many. I am planning to post a few from each different styles in the future. Any criticism is welcome.

    also, see if you can find a Hapikido video that has the consecutive Qin Na like that in the OP video.
    Last edited by dre2308; 06-15-2012 at 02:33 PM.

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    Re: Qin Na, Throwing and San shou demonstration

    Hi Dre,
    Yes the videos have the hanzi San shou in it and we all know San shou means like free sparring.

    I guess when we are talking about San shou in America we are thinking more in the lines of this.

    San shou free sparring
    Sanshou but looks like Sanda
    Shuai Jiao


    This is similar to how in America when talking about Wushu/Kungfu

    Looking for videos of Hapkido that shows a similar joint lock is pointles. Of course in Hapkido, Jujutsu, Qinna, American wrestling they all have similar locks because only certain number of ways a joint can be moved. What differs is the methods on how the set up and concepts to put the locks on. Meaning You can have the same lock in Qin na and Judo but the Judoka might put it on after a throw while someone who studies say Wushu might put it on after a strike.

    If we look at your video the way the techniques are done just looks more inline with Hapkido and maybe thats the uniforms which are Korean helps bring that image more in depth. The video is a demo, its flashy, not practical, I don't feel it represents the characteristics of San shou and Sanda as applied in the videos I have shown which do show more of the characteristics. The other videos you have shown in this thread from Youtube look to be again, demos some poor, some ok but again nothing that to me has characteristics of San shou/Sanda.
    If you listen to your heart than you are truly following Heavens way.

    There is the easy way to do things, and there is the right way to do things choose wisely.

    My friends call me CŠo Cāo 曹操.

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    Re: Qin Na, Throwing and San shou demonstration

    Quote Originally Posted by oaktree View Post
    Hi Dre,
    Yes the videos have the hanzi San shou in it and we all know San shou means like free sparring.

    I guess when we are talking about San shou in America we are thinking more in the lines of this.

    This is similar to how in America when talking about Wushu/Kungfu

    Looking for videos of Hapkido that shows a similar joint lock is pointles. Of course in Hapkido, Jujutsu, Qinna, American wrestling they all have similar locks because only certain number of ways a joint can be moved. What differs is the methods on how the set up and concepts to put the locks on. Meaning You can have the same lock in Qin na and Judo but the Judoka might put it on after a throw while someone who studies say Wushu might put it on after a strike.

    If we look at your video the way the techniques are done just looks more inline with Hapkido and maybe thats the uniforms which are Korean helps bring that image more in depth. The video is a demo, its flashy, not practical, I don't feel it represents the characteristics of San shou and Sanda as applied in the videos I have shown which do show more of the characteristics. The other videos you have shown in this thread from Youtube look to be again, demos some poor, some ok but again nothing that to me has characteristics of San shou/Sanda.
    Hi Oaktree,

    Sanshou is a Chinese term that has long existed before Sanda has created. I just didn't know Sanshou nowadays refers more to Sanda and wrestling. thank you for clearing that up for me.

    I am not very familiar with Hapkido so please correct me if I am wrong. I breifly watched a few Hapkido videos on youtube, and I found that most of Hapkido throws are kind of similar to Judo's that they use a lot of shoulder and hip throwing tecniques, which is different from our throws. If you watch the first two throws carefully in the OP video, you will see what I mean.


    Most of our throws and Qin Na are from BaGua Sect(八卦門) in China. There are many different styles of throws in that school, and one of the most distinct one is the BaGua 48 QinNa sets, which is the technique at 1:04. I donít think Hapkido has that type of consecutive Qin Na set although I admit some of our throws are similar to Hapikidoís.

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    Re: Qin Na, Throwing and San shou demonstration

    aaaaa no..... the term Sanda is older than Sanshou like Daoyin is older than Qigong.

    Furthermore there are multiple versions but lets just narrow that down to 2 Sport and non-sport and to be honest what you have shown in your videos was not really either of them.
    .
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