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Thread: A theory on Ki and Chi

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    A theory on Ki and Chi

    It is long known that the Japanese and Chinese share quite diverse views on the matter of existant forces such as ki and chi. These differences however are merely cultural divides very recent, and overdue from an occupation and since lingering resentment of one population on another.

    The fact is, Japanese and Chinese culture, for as long as the former has existed, shared an influx of ideologies. Japanese martial arts, primordially, were emulated from northern style arts.

    When I strike, the energy flows from the ground, through my body, out my arm to the target. I believe chi is just kinetic energy, expediantly conducted through our bodies. Our bones, hollow, create conduits to minimize this force naturally for structural integrity against stresses, and so in certain positions and alignments, kinetic energy can flow more condusively and cohesively.

    Chi is the feeling of this utilization. It is the degree of control over channeling kinetic energy through oneself to another.

    Ki however, is a force which operates by binding two beings, one over the other. While many think kiai is to simply shout, it's really describing the bond created between two individuals by the sheer power of their being. Everyone has felt the presence of a master when they step in the square with them. Some have such great control over this bond, they can manifest this bond physically between themself and their desired subject. A quick search online gives a contemporary example of a man who can ring a bell by shouting. If you learn how to make a bowl of water ripple with your kiai, you've got the idea.

    But sound, too, is a physical force, and kinetic energy. The difference is how it is utilized, with ki directing it manifestly externally, and chi doing so through internal contact.

    Though they are indeed different, they both utilize the same element to gain control over the situation in totality, and ensure survival. And that is that they manipulate kinetic energy.

    When one can strike a series of touching, separate boards, and only break the last board, I would fear that man's strike.

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    Re: A theory on Ki and Chi

    Ki is the Japanese translation of Qi.

    Best thing to say about QI
    Storng Qi your healthy
    Wwak Qi your Sick
    No Qi your dead

    Traditional Chinese for Qi and Japanese Kanji for Ki

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    Re: A theory on Ki and Chi

    take your Ki or Qi, i'll take my sword.

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    Re: A theory on Ki and Chi

    Mmmm! Your understanding of Ki and my understanding of Ki are about 180 degrees divergent. Perhaps do a google search for a guy called Mike Sigman. He has written extensively on Ki and the internal martial arts.
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    Re: A theory on Ki and Chi

    Quote Originally Posted by K-man View Post
    Mmmm! Your understanding of Ki and my understanding of Ki are about 180 degrees divergent. Perhaps do a google search for a guy called Mike Sigman. He has written extensively on Ki and the internal martial arts.
    Mike understands it very well to say the least.
    I know lots of people don't favor forms training too much, but I personally like the way it gives me a CLF aftertaste...
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    Re: A theory on Ki and Chi

    I believe chi is just kinetic energy, expediantly conducted through our bodies. Our bones, hollow, create conduits to minimize this force naturally for structural integrity against stresses, and so in certain positions and alignments, kinetic energy can flow more condusively and cohesively.

    Chi is the feeling of this utilization. It is the degree of control over channeling kinetic energy through oneself to another
    Here lies the confusion. You are speaking about one type of Qi 气 which is Human energy Ren Qi人气. To me you are describing Fa Jin 发劲 which is how Qi can be used in striking. There is a saying in Chinese medicine" Qi xue tong yuan 气血同源" this means blood and qi can not be seperated in humans. The best defination for Qi that makes sense is energy.

    Chi is the feeling of this utilization. It is the degree of control over channeling kinetic energy through oneself to another.
    Sounds like Chan si gong 缠丝功 or silk reeling we have this in Chen Taijiquan. Or as I said before Fa Jin 发劲.

    Ki however, is a force which operates by binding two beings
    Ki=气 Qi=气.

    While many think kiai is to simply shout, it's really describing the bond created between two individuals by the sheer power of their being
    In Chinese it is 气合 qi he so nothing really diffierent Chinese martial artist use this.

    The difference is how it is utilized, with ki directing it manifestly externally, and chi doing so through internal contact.
    I think the correct word would be Yi 意 yi means your intent in which you direct things.
    If you listen to your heart than you are truly following Heavens way.

    There is the easy way to do things, and there is the right way to do things choose wisely.

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    Re: A theory on Ki and Chi

    Apologies for my lack of vernacular, I would agree with all that you wrote, though I wouldn't say anything necessarily disagree with what I did. All those things, seem to me, to utilize physical energy. Though it is not just for striking. In theory even our blood carries a flowing charge of kinetic energy from its very movement. I have trained with one individual who claimed to make use of it, and for such a small man, he hit hard enough that I could believe it. He had great internal control.

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    Re: A theory on Ki and Chi

    Apologies for my lack of vernacular
    Its alright this site is for sharing, disagreements agreements opinions all are vaild.
    though I wouldn't say anything necessarily disagree with what I did. All those things, seem to me, to utilize physical energy
    Qi can be any energy.

    I have trained with one individual who claimed to make use of it, and for such a small man, he hit hard enough that I could believe it. He had great internal control.
    I am sure there is many of claim things like this. You can read Jadecloudalchemist post about Qi on martial talk they are very well done.
    If you listen to your heart than you are truly following Heavens way.

    There is the easy way to do things, and there is the right way to do things choose wisely.

    My friends call me Co Cāo 曹操.

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    Re: A theory on Ki and Chi

    Qi can be any energy.
    This... is certainly true. I think you'll find that what I'm putting forward also explains how that can be. After all, raw kinetic energy is one of the best types of energy which can become, like qi, any type of energy.

    There is a noise I have heard my body make when I actually use internalized energy when executing a strike. I've had great difficulty in describing it, but it literally sounds akin to shaking from too much force. I think, though, I can give an example which may give a good description of the feeling, even if its not necessarily for the same reason.

    I've noticed while driving a car, so long as the wheels are adequately filled, the car uses the kinetic energy both to drive, coast, and stop. This is like saying the sky is blue. I have noticed however, if you submit your car to force, if the wheels are say not completely filled with air, it creates a kind of drag. If you accelerate to quickly, the car has a very noticeable rumble and shaking before it smooths out. Obviously one should fill the air in the tire to mitigate the damage to the car, but the feeling from this is the exact same, to me, that I experience when I throw those techniques.

    I hope that explains, adequately, how it feels when releasing that internalized force, to me. I hate using that latter word, 'force', but sometimes it really is the most fitting, or only one.
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    Re: A theory on Ki and Chi

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    This... is certainly true. I think you'll find that what I'm putting forward also explains how that can be. After all, raw kinetic energy is one of the best types of energy which can become, like qi, any type of energy.
    .....just.....




    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    There is a noise I have heard my body make when I actually use internalized energy when executing a strike. I've had great difficulty in describing it, but it literally sounds akin to shaking from too much force. I think, though, I can give an example which may give a good description of the feeling, even if its not necessarily for the same reason.
    I know that! I bet it's one of these:





    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    I've noticed while driving a car, so long as the wheels are adequately filled, the car uses the kinetic energy both to drive, coast, and stop. This is like saying the sky is blue. I have noticed however, if you submit your car to force, if the wheels are say not completely filled with air, it creates a kind of drag. If you accelerate to quickly, the car has a very noticeable rumble and shaking before it smooths out. Obviously one should fill the air in the tire to mitigate the damage to the car, but the feeling from this is the exact same, to me, that I experience when I throw those techniques.

    I hope that explains, adequately, how it feels when releasing that internalized force, to me. I hate using that latter word, 'force', but sometimes it really is the most fitting, or only one.

    Then don't use it-that word-"force." Or "Energy." Or "ki." Or "kinetic," though you didn't do too badly with that one.....




    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    I hope that explains, adequately, how it feels when releasing that internalized force, to me. .
    Pancake-bunnyfirst.jpg

    I will now waste a little bit of knowledge, because that's all I really profess to have.

    If you think of your ki as high pressure fire water, and your limbs as the hose, and think of what a fire hose does with the nozzle open, water flowing through it, and no one holding it, and what would happen if that nozzle suddenly shut-and, lastly, what it might be able to do with the nozzle open and someone holding the hose in place, you have a barely adequate metaphor for utilizing and releasing internal energy.

    With that said, imagine the scenario where the hose nozzle is open and no one is holding it, and the nozzle suddenly shuts, but, in this instance, there's a weakness in the hose.

    I'm going to tell you that I bet you still have some hose strengthening to do-never mind the training and strength of your "firemen," you know, the guys that "hold the hose," but you're probably not gonna listen.......
    Last edited by elder999; 07-15-2012 at 03:02 PM.
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    Re: A theory on Ki and Chi

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    This... is certainly true. I think you'll find that what I'm putting forward also explains how that can be. After all, raw kinetic energy is one of the best types of energy which can become, like qi, any type of energy.

    There is a noise I have heard my body make when I actually use internalized energy when executing a strike. I've had great difficulty in describing it, but it literally sounds akin to shaking from too much force. I think, though, I can give an example which may give a good description of the feeling, even if its not necessarily for the same reason.

    I've noticed while driving a car, so long as the wheels are adequately filled, the car uses the kinetic energy both to drive, coast, and stop. This is like saying the sky is blue. I have noticed however, if you submit your car to force, if the wheels are say not completely filled with air, it creates a kind of drag. If you accelerate to quickly, the car has a very noticeable rumble and shaking before it smooths out. Obviously one should fill the air in the tire to mitigate the damage to the car, but the feeling from this is the exact same, to me, that I experience when I throw those techniques.

    I hope that explains, adequately, how it feels when releasing that internalized force, to me. I hate using that latter word, 'force', but sometimes it really is the most fitting, or only one.

    I think that noise is probably wind, ask any BJJer or Judoka
    I fight. Not simply with my opponent. I fight with the demons of doubt. With my exhaustion, with my past failures, with my injuries, with my anonymity, with the unrelenting voice that tells me to stop. But I am a fighter. And one thing is sure. I will be victorious.

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    Re: A theory on Ki and Chi

    Hi ZenJael,
    Qi is a tricky word even in Chinese . Trying to find an English translation can be a challenge. I say it means any type of energy before, but as I venture deeper into Chinese language I think it might be errorous, My wife being a native Chinese thinks Qi depending on the usage and the closest "catch all" English defination is energy. but in Chinese there are other words used to describe energy like kinetic energy Dong Neng 动能 which does not have the word Qi in it.like Dong means to do and Neng means like to do so you have do and do or doo doo and doo doo is a type of kinetic energy

    As to how the word and meaning came to be you would have to be versed in classical Chinese and most likely a scholar in Chinese language which totally doesn't get you girls
    just look at Thomas Clearly.

    I don't know what noise your body makes could be bad thats why it is so important to have a teacher to help you develop correctly and answer questions like that.

    I have no idea what you mean with your car metaphor.
    Last edited by oaktree; 07-15-2012 at 05:22 PM. Reason: forgot to add a word.
    If you listen to your heart than you are truly following Heavens way.

    There is the easy way to do things, and there is the right way to do things choose wisely.

    My friends call me Co Cāo 曹操.

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    Re: A theory on Ki and Chi

    Alex,the 'energy' of Ki could be several things but I would suggest kinetic energy isn't one of them. I have friends whose idea of Ki is that Ki makes their body stronger so they can take a hit or hit harder. This ties in with their understanding of Kata Sanchin and although I don't totally agree with what they believe I think they have part of the answer. To me Ki is a little different. When you hit with Ki you actually don't have to hit as hard. That is why the atemi in aikido, if taught properly, is so effective. That alone demonstrates that Ki is not kinetic energy. Ki is also utilised in many other ways but I hesitate in introducing another dimension into the discussion.
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    Re: A theory on Ki and Chi

    From my understanding, chi is basically just energy. Human being, like any living being, uses energy to operate. There are things that make the use and flow of that energy optimal and things that retard it. Through training a person may learn to manipulate that energy to a degree, but no amount of training can teach a person to break the laws of physics.

    In my experience, people who focus on the chi aspect of training to get the mythical advantages are really missing seeing the forest for the trees. If you want strong chi, be healthy and train properly. There are no short cuts and having strong chi does not make you into some invulnerable fighter god.

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    Re: A theory on Ki and Chi

    Oh dear lord....

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    It is long known that the Japanese and Chinese share quite diverse views on the matter of existant forces such as ki and chi. These differences however are merely cultural divides very recent, and overdue from an occupation and since lingering resentment of one population on another.
    Hang on, how can a difference be "long known", and at the same time be "very recent"...? But more to the point, what on earth are you talking about? Ki IS Chi... same thing, same concept, same word, just different pronunciations in two languages. As a result, I think we can start to throw your theory out right about.... now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    The fact is, Japanese and Chinese culture, for as long as the former has existed, shared an influx of ideologies. Japanese martial arts, primordially, were emulated from northern style arts.
    Uh.... no. Just... no. To begin with, "emulated" doesn't make sense the way you're using it there, but when it comes to Japanese martial arts coming from Chinese Northern styles? I can think of perhaps a handful that might have had some influence (Akayama line of Yoshin Ryu), but the vast majority really don't have much connection to Chinese systems at all. There are a large number of reasons for this, by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    When I strike, the energy flows from the ground, through my body, out my arm to the target. I believe chi is just kinetic energy, expediantly conducted through our bodies. Our bones, hollow, create conduits to minimize this force naturally for structural integrity against stresses, and so in certain positions and alignments, kinetic energy can flow more condusively and cohesively.
    Uh... no. Kinetic energy can be an expression of ki (as ki is really a name given to any form of "energy", as well as having a range of other contextual meanings), but that doesn't mean it's the same thing. When it comes to your take on anatomy, all I can say is stay in school, kid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    Chi is the feeling of this utilization. It is the degree of control over channeling kinetic energy through oneself to another.
    No it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    Ki however, is a force which operates by binding two beings, one over the other.
    No, it isn't. And there is no difference between Ki and Chi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    While many think kiai is to simply shout, it's really describing the bond created between two individuals by the sheer power of their being.
    No it isn't. And there is no difference between Ki and Chi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    Everyone has felt the presence of a master when they step in the square with them. Some have such great control over this bond, they can manifest this bond physically between themself and their desired subject.
    Where have you gotten these ideas from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    A quick search online gives a contemporary example of a man who can ring a bell by shouting. If you learn how to make a bowl of water ripple with your kiai, you've got the idea.
    No, there's perfectly good physics reasons for how such things are done. It has nothing to do with ki/chi. You're falling for parlour tricks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    But sound, too, is a physical force, and kinetic energy. The difference is how it is utilized, with ki directing it manifestly externally, and chi doing so through internal contact.
    Huh? And (one more time...) there is no difference between ki and chi.

    [QUOTE=Zenjael;1468378]Though they are indeed different, they both utilize the same element to gain control over the situation in totality, and ensure survival. And that is that they manipulate kinetic energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    When one can strike a series of touching, separate boards, and only break the last board, I would fear that man's strike.
    Especially if you're a board, hanging around with other boards, thinking you're safe at the bottom there... again, you're falling for parlour tricks. Kinetic transference is a well known physical property, hell, those "management toys" with the swinging balls demonstrate it perfectly... or are you suggesting that only a martial ki master could make the end ball move by hitting the row with one other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    Apologies for my lack of vernacular, I would agree with all that you wrote, though I wouldn't say anything necessarily disagree with what I did.
    Except when it was stated repeatedly that your idea of there being a separation between the Chinese and Japanese concepts was completely wrong? Oh, and there isn't a lack of vernacular in your posts, Alex, there's a lack of correctly applied language. As has been remarked, if you can't explain it with simple words, you don't understand it well enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    All those things, seem to me, to utilize physical energy. Though it is not just for striking. In theory even our blood carries a flowing charge of kinetic energy from its very movement. I have trained with one individual who claimed to make use of it, and for such a small man, he hit hard enough that I could believe it. He had great internal control.
    You know the secret to hitting really, really hard, regardless of how "small" you are? Train hard and seriously, and work on your body mechanics. Train. I'm willing to bet that the guy who hit you trained a lot, yeah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    This... is certainly true. I think you'll find that what I'm putting forward also explains how that can be. After all, raw kinetic energy is one of the best types of energy which can become, like qi, any type of energy.
    No, what you're putting down is unnecessarily complicating an area that is confusing enough to most Westerners, as well as being fundamentally wrong in a number of very major ways. And you really missed what Oaktree was saying... when you're using the term "ki/qi/chi", it can mean any type of energy. Kinetic energy is one type. It can't become "any type" itself. You're really failing physics 101 here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    There is a noise I have heard my body make when I actually use internalized energy when executing a strike. I've had great difficulty in describing it, but it literally sounds akin to shaking from too much force. I think, though, I can give an example which may give a good description of the feeling, even if its not necessarily for the same reason.
    Honestly, that tells me that you've really missed any education on ki whatsoever. In fact, I'd suggest that what you're describing is the result of too much tension, which is really anathema to the correct flow of ki, and you're personally putting emphasis on it, believing it to be a good thing when it's actually quite a bad one. Relax, and stop that before you give yourself an aneurism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    I've noticed while driving a car, so long as the wheels are adequately filled, the car uses the kinetic energy both to drive, coast, and stop. This is like saying the sky is blue. I have noticed however, if you submit your car to force, if the wheels are say not completely filled with air, it creates a kind of drag. If you accelerate to quickly, the car has a very noticeable rumble and shaking before it smooths out. Obviously one should fill the air in the tire to mitigate the damage to the car, but the feeling from this is the exact same, to me, that I experience when I throw those techniques.
    Firstly, a car doesn't use kinetic energy. It uses an internal combustion motor to power the wheels. When coasting (not applying energy to the wheels), it is using the principle of inertia. Secondly, your understanding of car maintenance is off as well.. you don't want to completely fill the tyres with air, or you don't have enough grip (not enough of the tyre surface on the road). Having the tyres under-inflated leads to too much of the surface on the road, and extra stress being placed on the tyres themselves. More force is required to get them moving properly. It shouldn't rumble and shake, though... but more importantly, this has nothing at all to do with ki, or your explanations.

    Oh, and the sky isn't blue, it just looks that way from where we are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjael View Post
    I hope that explains, adequately, how it feels when releasing that internalized force, to me. I hate using that latter word, 'force', but sometimes it really is the most fitting, or only one.
    Uh, no. But do us a favour, when it comes to "releasing that internalized force", keep it in the bedroom. As that really sounds like what you're describing here.
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