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Thread: Human Weapon- TKD

  1. #76
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    Re: Human Weapon- TKD

    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMan View Post
    But it just reinforced to me that what we practice is truly descended from Taekkyon.
    Again, it's not. To repeat: Taekkyon itself died out in the late 19th c. in Korea as a widespread activity; it never had the status of a martial art; a new MA packaged as taekkyon was created in the mid-20th c. with no demonstrable connection to the folk foot wrestling game that taekkyon consisted of in the 19th c.; supposedly early documentary mention of taekkyon are actually references to takkyon 'push-shoulders', a generic term referring to unbalancing movements rather than a specific MA, and so on. Specialized MA historians—Stanley Henning, Dakin Burdick, Steve Capener, Manuel Adrogues and others in their mostly peer reviewed publications (Journal of Asian Martial Arts; I've given you the specific references elsewhere so it shouldn't be necessary to repeat them, eh? ) with competence in Chinese, Japanese and Korean have examined the complete documentary record as we currently have it and found absolutely no role for taekkyon in the formation of modern TKD; and this conclusion is supported in the writing of Gm. S. Henry Cho(Taekwondo: Secrets of Korean Karate, 1968) and Gm. Kim Soo
    (in his interview in the January Black Belt).

    If you're privy to some new cache of documention that shows that contrary to all currently known evidence, taekkyon had a significant input into current TKD, please provide us with the sources. If not, then all you're doing is repeating unsupported dojang folklore and KMA legends—never the sort of thing recommended for maintenance of one's credibility.
    Last edited by exile; 12-28-2007 at 09:44 AM.
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  2. #77
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    Re: Human Weapon- TKD

    Quote Originally Posted by AceHBK View Post
    I went to the website and yahoo tv but it doesnt seem to be showing anymore. It said that it first aired today at 12pm and then again at 6pm. It has no other shows listed and on yahoo tv there are no other episodes showing when I was looking for a future date.
    Same here. I finally downloaded it and my husband and I just saw it. We liked the show, it could be a lot worst, lol.

  3. #78
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    Re: Human Weapon- TKD

    Quote Originally Posted by exile View Post
    Again, it's not. To repeat: Taekkyon itself died out in the late 19th c. in Korea as a widespread activity; it never had the status of a martial art; a new MA packaged as taekkyon was created in the mid-20th c. with no demonstrable connection to the folk foot wrestling game that taekkyon consisted of in the 19th c.; supposedly early documentary mention of taekkyon are actually references to takkyon 'push-shoulders', a generic term referring to unbalancing movements rather than a specific MA, and so on. Specialized MA historians—Stanley Henning, Dakin Burdick, Steve Capener, Manuel Adrogues and others in their mostly peer reviewed publications (Journal of Asian Martial Arts; I've given you the specific references elsewhere so it shouldn't be necessary to repeat them, eh? ) with competence in Chinese, Japanese and Korean have examined the complete documentary record as we currently have it and found absolutely no role for taekkyon in the formation of modern TKD; and this conclusion is supported in the writing of Gm. S. Henry Cho(Taekwondo: Secrets of Korean Karate, 1968) and Gm. Kim Soo
    (in his interview in the January Black Belt).

    If you're privy to some new cache of documention that shows that contrary to all currently known evidence, taekkyon had a significant input into current TKD, please provide us with the sources. If not, then all you're doing is repeating unsupported dojang folklore and KMA legends—never the sort of thing recommended for maintenance of one's credibility.
    This is pretty much what my understanding is. The original TKD was barely varnished Shotokan Karate. For reasons of national pride it was necessary to put a stronger coat of "Korean" on it. Pictures of Taek Kyon were available though the "art" itself was mostly just a memory. The pictures and some terminology were used to help build a story that there was a deep connection to Korea's past in this art. It just wasn't so. The art is now certainly distinct from Karate, but the stories are just that.

  4. #79
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    Re: Human Weapon- TKD

    Quote Originally Posted by arnisador View Post
    This is pretty much what my understanding is. The original TKD was barely varnished Shotokan Karate. For reasons of national pride it was necessary to put a stronger coat of "Korean" on it. Pictures of Taek Kyon were available though the "art" itself was mostly just a memory. The pictures and some terminology were used to help build a story that there was a deep connection to Korea's past in this art. It just wasn't so. The art is now certainly distinct from Karate, but the stories are just that.
    The last line stries are just that, rings a bell to every TKD individual I know. Man just say what the truth is, it was developed for the Koreans to have there own destiny in the Arts. Is that just to hard to say.
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    Re: Human Weapon- TKD

    Quote Originally Posted by arnisador View Post
    This is pretty much what my understanding is. The original TKD was barely varnished Shotokan Karate. For reasons of national pride it was necessary to put a stronger coat of "Korean" on it. Pictures of Taek Kyon were available though the "art" itself was mostly just a memory. The pictures and some terminology were used to help build a story that there was a deep connection to Korea's past in this art. It just wasn't so. The art is now certainly distinct from Karate, but the stories are just that.
    Quote Originally Posted by terryl965 View Post
    The last line stries are just that, rings a bell to every TKD individual I know. Man just say what the truth is, it was developed for the Koreans to have there own destiny in the Arts. Is that just to hard to say.
    You've both summed it up exactly (IOU both rep, but you're both still on my current rep cycle). And the interesting thing is, there are plenty of senior Korean MAists who will candidly acknowledge that no, the legendary ancient lineage tales are, indeed, just dojang folktales; both of the ones I've mentioned are very straight about this, and there are others. But the (understandable) resentment of the brutality of Japanese occupation amongst its Korean victims led certain individuals to what I regard as a near- (or fully) pathological level of denial, such as that instructor Gm. Kim Soo mentions in his current-issue Black Belt interview who was on the verge of physical violence when Gm. Kim, then a student, mentioned that his dojang lineage orginated with a Japanese master karateka.

    I've read all kinds of apologetics and rationales for this sort of revisionism, including what I regard as the seriously dangerous idea that people have the right to believe what they want to if it makes them feel good. Talk about a slippery slope, eh? The point is, it's a total package: if you want the truth, then you have to be willing to face it even when it makes you feel bad; the price you pay for bending the truth when you don't like it—even when you're completely morally justified in disliking it—is that you have no grounds for complaining when someone else bends the truth in a way that makes you the bad guy, as long as it makes them feel good. The great irony in this case is that at a deeper level, the KMAs can derive their ancestry further back than Japan, back to Okinawa and China, where the ancestral arts that gave rise to Japanese karate were forged. And those countries suffered from the same terrible cruelty that the Koreans experienced themselves at the hands of the Japanese, or even worse in some cases (think of the mass live burials of citizens of Nanking).

    What we need is someone to do for the history of TKD what Harry Cook has done for the history of Shotokan: construct a massively documented, meticulously honest and detailed history of the art that teases out the various contributions of the players, both famous and obscure, going back as far as the documentary record allows. People like Capener, Burdick, Henning and Adrogučs have made an excellent start, but clearly their work hasn't gotten the attention from the general KMA audience that it deserves...
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    Re: Human Weapon- TKD

    Do any of you guys know a site I can download this episode?

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    Re: Human Weapon- TKD

    Watching the way the Taekkyon guys executed technique (front kick, back roundhouse kick, jumping kicks, roundhouse kicks, side kicks), it was almost exactly the way we were taught to do it when I was coming up in Chung Do Kwan. That's how we did technique. We practiced the back sidekick step (shift away, turn, then shift toward) exactly like that. Only difference is we didn't kick like the mule kick. Everything else was the same.
    Now, if the Taekkyon practiced today is little like the Taekkyon of 500 years ago (I suspect it is quite similar), but is still considered Taekkyon, then so be it. As far as I'm concerned, based on the techniques I saw on Human Weapon and knowing how we trained in Tae Kwon Do, the stuff I was taught to do is directly descended from Taekkyon. Videos I have seen on Youtube bear me out. Not everything is the same, mind you, but much of it is.
    Now, what I suspect is happening is students of Jidokwan, Changmookwan, Moodukkwan, and most of the others had no experience in Taekkyon and so, to them, their version of Tae Kwon Do would simply be Koreanized Japanese karate.

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    Re: Human Weapon- TKD

    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMan View Post
    Watching the way the Taekkyon guys executed technique (front kick, back roundhouse kick, jumping kicks, roundhouse kicks, side kicks), it was almost exactly the way we were taught to do it when I was coming up in Chung Do Kwan. That's how we did technique. We practiced the back sidekick step (shift away, turn, then shift toward) exactly like that. Only difference is we didn't kick like the mule kick. Everything else was the same.
    Now, if the Taekkyon practiced today is little like the Taekkyon of 500 years ago (I suspect it is quite similar), but is still considered Taekkyon, then so be it. As far as I'm concerned, based on the techniques I saw on Human Weapon and knowing how we trained in Tae Kwon Do, the stuff I was taught to do is directly descended from Taekkyon. Videos I have seen on Youtube bear me out. Not everything is the same, mind you, but much of it is.
    Now, what I suspect is happening is students of Jidokwan, Changmookwan, Moodukkwan, and most of the others had no experience in Taekkyon and so, to them, their version of Tae Kwon Do would simply be Koreanized Japanese karate.
    I would say it is almost improbably the reverse in that the Tae Kyon you see today is probably descended from students who practiced Tae Kwon Do the way you did back then. Judging by how things are reworked in Korea I think this is a fairly safe bet!
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    Re: Human Weapon- TKD

    We'll probably never know, since they didn't have cameras 500 years ago! I have read anecdotal stories of Taekkyon students doing leg techniques we would recognize, and holding matches where kicking the head earned the highest point.

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    Re: Human Weapon- TKD

    The Korean Martial Arts are great and I enjoy them very much. Still I wish the history would come out truthfully. People like Exile and I enjoy hearing and knowing the truth rather than reworked history or imagination. Still both of us love the Korean arts even if I have moved on a bit!
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    Re: Human Weapon- TKD

    Thing I find ironic:

    Jason and Bill (who I thoroughly enjoy watching btw) have traveled to several countries and experienced judo, karate, muay thai, escrima, to name a few. In that time, the worst they ever suffered fighting skilled fighters was a few bumps and bruises.
    It was a Tae Kwon Do fighter, representing an art many people scoff at, who did what had not been done before: knock out one of the hosts on his own show. And I don't mean Bill gets hit and stumbles around a bit, I mean stone cold knocked out.
    Maybe now people will realize what Tae Kwon Do can do.

  12. #87
    exile's Avatar
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    Re: Human Weapon- TKD

    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMan View Post
    Now, if the Taekkyon practiced today is little like the Taekkyon of 500 years ago (I suspect it is quite similar), but is still considered Taekkyon, then so be it.
    It's not 'considered' Taekkyon; it's called taekkyon by those who do it, which is very different. As I mentioned at one point, there is a version of modern Kenpo which is called Shaolin Temple Kenpo. And if you believe that it has any historical connection whatever to what the Shaolin monks were doing in the seventh century or whenever it supposedly was that Bhodidharma taught them the basis of their MA (whatever that was), well, I've got a bridge that I'm forced to sell a considerable sacrifice that I'm sure you'll want to consider purchasing!


    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMan View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, based on the techniques I saw on Human Weapon and knowing how we trained in Tae Kwon Do, the stuff I was taught to do is directly descended from Taekkyon.
    Your criterion for deciding a matter of historical fact is what you saw in a brief segment on a one-hour popular entertainment television show??

    The point is, YM, what you saw cannot possibly provide you with the evidence that would justify that conclusion. If you see something called Taekkyon and it looks like something you did in TKD, those facts by themselves give you no justification for drawing any conclusion whatever about the relationship between the two. First of all, nothing you saw on HW establishes the time depth of taekkyon at all, does it. To do that, you'd need to review the documentary history of the Korean MAs and look at what recorded oral materials there are from earlier time periods that bore on the question. And that is exactly what the MA historians I mentioned in my previous posts have done, reading the available Chinese, Japanese and Korean sources and analyzing the evidence they contain. And as I pointed out, there is virtually no mention of taekkyon earlier that the 19th century; when people talk about 'ancient' taekkyon, they are, as Stanley Henning demonstrates in the paper I cited, confusing the transliteration of taekkyon (which appears in no old records) from that of takkyon, meaning 'push-shoulders', a generic label for unbalancing moves (as vs. striking with the hand or using weapons). And what contemporary records we have are, as Steve Capener documents in the source I cited, unanimous that taekkyon was a folk leg-wrestling contest practiced at village festivals, where it was the basis for much gambling activity, and was actively suppressed by the Japanese early on during their extended occupation of Korea, starting with the last quarter of the 19th c., though it only became official thirty years later. We also know that taekkyon was 'revived' by KMAists during the post-Cold War era who were surrounded by thousands of people doing kicking techniques representing extensions of the Shotokan/Shudokan kicks that the Kwan founders had brought back from Japan with their freshly minted dan ranks in those JMAs. And then, surprise surpise, we find devotees of this newly-hatched `taekkyon' doing the same kinds of kicks as the premier KMA of the time, heavily sponsored and promoted by the military dictatorship that ruled Korea for 18 years in the post-Korean War era, and on this basis you form the belief that you're seeing the demonstration of an ancient KMA that TKD descended from??


    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMan View Post
    Videos I have seen on Youtube bear me out. Not everything is the same, mind you, but much of it is.
    Bears you out?? How do YouTube demos bear that picture out any more than the Human Weapon program bears it out?? Exactly what evidence do those videos contain which is incompatible with the known, documented invention of a new Korean MA using pieces of technique already available from TKD (including kicks traceable to karate kicking techniques),named after an earlier leg-wrestling form of contest which had been, according to all reliable sources, virtually extinct by the early 20th century? Would you care to identify just what it was in those YouTube videos that offers dramatically new evidence on the point?

    Or was it just that the kicks in what was described in those videos 'looked like' what you learned in your TKD classes? Because if it was the latter, you got no case, none at all, given what the actual historical evidence base which I've given you detailed references to shows.


    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMan View Post
    Now, what I suspect is happening is students of Jidokwan, Changmookwan, Moodukkwan, and most of the others had no experience in Taekkyon and so, to them, their version of Tae Kwon Do would simply be Koreanized Japanese karate.
    Given the facts that their Kwan founders received publically acknowledged black belts in Japanese karate systems from prominent instructors, given the fact that early curricula of all the original Kwans incorporated classic Okinawan-derived kata such as the Taikyoku (Kichos) Pinan/Heian set (Pyung-Ahn), Empi (Eunbi), Naihanchi, Bassai (Balsek), Rohai and many others, that the techniques taught in these Kwans were called karate in Korean (tang soo do and kong soo do, the actual names of the arts taught, are the translations into Korean of the two different transliterations of kara-te, 'empty hand'/'China hand'), ... etc. etc. etc..... I'd say that your suspicions are pretty much without any factual foundation whatever. I'd say further that this kinds of evidence makes it pretty clear that the students of the early Kwans regarded their art as Korean karate because, as Gm. Kim Soo points out in his current-issue interview in Black Belt, that's exactly what it was, and they recognized the same techniques they were doing when they saw karate techniques demo'd. Of course, since every one of their first-generation instructors had learned karate from the Okinawan expats whom they studied with in Japan, it would have been a little weird for them to come to any any other conclusion anyway, right? For heaven's sake, my own TKD lineage, Song Moo Kwan, one of the original five, is almost a word-for-word translation into Korean of Shotokan: shoto ('waving pines', taken by Gichin Funakoshi as his nom de plume for the poetry he wrote) +kan ('house, (training) hall') <---> Song ('Pine Tree') + Moo ('martial') + Kwan ('school, training hall'), not surprising given the fact that Byung Jik Ro, who founded it, was a fourth dan under Funakoshi before returning to Seoul at the end of the 1930s.

    In and of itself, a suspicion is nothing but a hunch, and has no standing with respect to a factual question; until you can find some solid evidence to support it, a hunch is nothing but an incidental aspect of your biography. It's about you, not the history of TKD (or anything else). We all have hunches, all the time, and most of them probably are incorrect, but whether they're correct or not, they do not signify so far as judging factual issues one way or another. They're useful only in providing us with a starting point, a direction, for pursuing those issues. In this case, there is a lot of historical evidence and argumentation bearing in the questions at hand, evidence your posts make it clear you're unaware of. Maybe it would be better for you to actually look into that evidence a bit before forming such 'suspicions' on the basis of an hour-long television series about a pair of wandering martial arts guys spending a week cramming for an 'exam' on each of a fairly large number of different martial arts, apart from the YouTube videos you mentioned....
    Last edited by exile; 12-29-2007 at 02:58 PM.
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    Re: Human Weapon- TKD

    As has probably been mentioned before, I loved watching Bill get flattened. Let's just hope that this reigns in a new era in the Martial Arts TV show were reality existes. And by that, I mean the stupid American with little training gets used as a mop when he fights the Asian guy who has been training all his life.

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    Re: Human Weapon- TKD

    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMan View Post
    Thing I find ironic:

    Jason and Bill (who I thoroughly enjoy watching btw) have traveled to several countries and experienced judo, karate, muay thai, escrima, to name a few. In that time, the worst they ever suffered fighting skilled fighters was a few bumps and bruises.
    It was a Tae Kwon Do fighter, representing an art many people scoff at, who did what had not been done before: knock out one of the hosts on his own show. And I don't mean Bill gets hit and stumbles around a bit, I mean stone cold knocked out.
    Maybe now people will realize what Tae Kwon Do can do.
    The knockout had more to do with the rules of the game, the player (in this case one talented at this type of game against Bill), and the situation rather then the art, though. The same could have happened in a boxing match, for example.
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    Re: Human Weapon- TKD

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian R. VanCise View Post
    The Korean Martial Arts are great and I enjoy them very much. Still I wish the history would come out truthfully. People like Exile and I enjoy hearing and knowing the truth rather than reworked history or imagination. Still both of us love the Korean arts even if I have moved on a bit!
    You know I'm with you and Exile too. I love the Korean Arts and my GM will set you down and tell you no TKD is not from 500 years ago, it is from the mid fifties and hust accept it. Thae Art is young, so what the Art has alot of great aspect to it. Please lets all work together to bring the truth to the forefront.
    Tae kwon do is a never ending quest for perfection. An art of developing the mind and the body to defeat your constant opponent…yourself. - anonymous

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