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Thread: 15th Dan

  1. #1
    Albertus is offline
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    Mushi Mushi 15th Dan

    I am following this rank obsession within the Bujinkan for some time now and I am wondering where this will lead to. Can anybody tell me what the purpose is of all these 15th Dan’s (see my list below) that are growing like rabbits in the Bujinkan. I alone counted 58 of them and I am sure that I am not complete. You can hardly call it special anymore to be a 15th Dan, it must be very frustrating nowadays to be "only" a 10th Dan (something only the very very best could achieve in the good old days). And what is there to strive for when you are a 15th Dan, at often such a young age? It is starting to become a joke to even have a rank in the Bujinkan. Can someone give me a decent comment on this, thanks.
    And if someone can add more names to this list, please feel free to do so, just to be as complete as possible.

    15th Dan Bujinkan :
    Joseph Adriance - U.S.A.
    Michael Asuncion - U.S.A.
    Ernani Pinto Bastos - Portugal
    SvenEric Bogsäter - Holland / Sweden
    José Manuel Collado Valencia - Spain
    José María Conejo - Spain
    Arnaud Cousergue - France
    Richard J. Van Donk - U.S.A.
    Brian Duckers - U.K.
    Jesús Equía - Spain
    Robert Erhardt - Germany
    Carlos Etchegaray - Argentina
    Pedro Fleitas González - Spain
    T(h)omas Franzén - Sweden
    Robert Fraser - Japan
    Steffen G. Fröhlich - Germany
    Yost Fulton - U.S.A.
    Sheila Haddad - U.S.A. / Germany (even a woman!)
    Daniel Hernández - Brasil / Argentina
    Jack E. Hoban - U.S.A.
    Darren Horvarth - Autralia
    Robert F. Johnson - U.S.A.
    Peter King - U.K.
    Phillip Legare - U.S.A.
    Ed Lomax - Australia / New Zealand
    Diego López García - Spain
    Carey D. "Bud" Malmstrom - U.S.A.
    Ed(ward) H. Martin - U.S.A.
    Kevin Millis - U.S.A.
    Carlos Morales Páez - Spain
    Brin(ley) Morgan - U.K.
    Natasha Tomarkin Morgan - U.K. (wow another woman!)
    Hiroshi Nagase - Japan
    Toshiro Nagato - Japan
    Keiji Nakadai - Japan
    Moti Nativ - Israël
    Yukio Noguchi - Japan
    Koichi (Kohi) Oguri - Japan
    Kim Oliveras - Spain
    Craig Olson - Japan
    Guillermo Lugo Pérez - Spain
    Lubos Pokorny - Czech Republik
    Keith Porter - U.K.
    Jeff(rey) Prather - U.S.A.
    Paco (Francisco) Rolán Belmonte - Spain
    Enzo Rossi - Italy
    Dean Rostohar - Croatia
    Dale Seago - U.S.A.
    Hideo Seno - Japan
    Juan Manuel Serrano - Spain
    Dick Severance - U.S.A.
    Isamu Shiraishi - Japan
    Norman Smithers - U.K.
    Nikolaos Stefanidis - Germany
    Larry Turner - U.S.A.
    Mariëtte van der Vliet - Holland (and a third woman!)
    Danny Waxman - Israël
    Doug Wilson - Japan

  2. #2
    Hayseed is offline
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    Re: 15th Dan

    Quote Originally Posted by Albertus View Post
    I am following this rank obsession within the Bujinkan for some time now and I am wondering where this will lead to. Can anybody tell me what the purpose is of all these 15th Dan.
    Ever wonder if it's done like this to show how meaningless rank truly is.
    Also, there is no "rank obsession" in the BJK, we don't flaunt our rank. We don't walk around saying "I'm a shodan, look at me!"

    You can hardly call it special anymore to be a 15th Dan.
    Now you're getting it.
    It is starting to become a joke to even have a rank in the Bujinkan
    It is a joke. Unfortunately some don't get it


    Sheila Haddad - U.S.A. / Germany (even a woman!)

    Natasha Tomarkin Morgan - U.K. (wow another woman!)

    Mariëtte van der Vliet - Holland (and a third woman!)
    Something wrong with women?
    Gambatte...

    Carl Bateman
    (Not Ranked)

  3. #3
    Shicomm's Avatar
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    Re: 15th Dan

    Quote Originally Posted by Albertus View Post
    I am following this rank obsession within the Bujinkan ...
    So , basicly you're saying that everybody is chasing rank just because they're @ a certain level ? Hmm....

    You can hardly call it special anymore to be a 15th Dan, it must be very frustrating nowadays to be "only" a 10th Dan (something only the very very best could achieve in the good old days).
    and you can know it, right ? ( don't think so... )

    And what is there to strive for when you are a 15th Dan, at often such a young age?
    What's the problem by keep walking the path you always have ?
    Seems to me that you think that the path actually has a start and a finish...
    If you think so.... well , you'll find out when you're done...

    It is starting to become a joke to even have a rank in the Bujinkan.
    Well thank you so much for that... becoming a joke means that at least i'm funny right ?

    Can someone give me a decent comment on this, thanks.
    Well, it's a bit tough to comment decently to a rather harsh statement isn't it ?

    You've been to Japan and trained with the various shihan ?
    If not ; please do so. You broad up your path and might see things a bit differently....
    The truth might suprise you...

    I'd like to end up with a quote:

    It doesnt matter who you are, where you're from or what your rank is. We're in this together. If you're not in it for the love of the art ; would you please ..... ?! ' Koone '

    Shicomm @ Japan 2010 : the 5th sensation... The sensation starts september the 13th !

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    benkyoka is offline
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    Re: 15th Dan

    Quote Originally Posted by Albertus View Post
    I am following this rank obsession within the Bujinkan for some time now and I am wondering where this will lead to. Can anybody tell me what the purpose is of all these 15th Dan’s (see my list below) that are growing like rabbits in the Bujinkan. I alone counted 58 of them and I am sure that I am not complete. You can hardly call it special anymore to be a 15th Dan, it must be very frustrating nowadays to be "only" a 10th Dan (something only the very very best could achieve in the good old days). And what is there to strive for when you are a 15th Dan, at often such a young age? It is starting to become a joke to even have a rank in the Bujinkan. Can someone give me a decent comment on this, thanks.
    And if someone can add more names to this list, please feel free to do so, just to be as complete as possible.

    15th Dan Bujinkan :


    I didn't know there was a 'list'. Perhaps you are the one 'obsessed'.

  5. #5
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    Re: 15th Dan

    Ok being some what stupid What rank dose the head of the system wear (claim to be)
    If he is a 20th then do we look at these 15th dans as being equivilent to what in other systems
    Don't do what you can't undo, until you've considered what you can't do once you've done it.

    a saying of king shrewd in Assassin's Apprentice by Robin Hobb

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    Re: 15th Dan

    Quote Originally Posted by tshadowchaser View Post
    Ok being some what stupid What rank dose the head of the system wear (claim to be)
    If he is a 20th then do we look at these 15th dans as being equivilent to what in other systems
    Hatsumi Sensei is the Soke. He in effect is not within the dan ranking system. How to compare dan ranks between systems? It is pretty hard though some have tried.

    Now as to the ranking system in the Bujinkan. I do not care, really I have never cared. The ranks I were given came from a friend/teacher and it would have been rude to have refused. As to everyone else's rank, I do not care. (that is for their ego to deal with) Now out of all the higher ranked Shidoshi and Shihan you will find some great teacher's. The second on your list Michael Asuncion is fantastic and I am having him over in March to teach. Bottom line though most people I know in the Bujinkan just want to train.
    Brian R. VanCise
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    Re: 15th Dan

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian R. VanCise View Post
    most people I know in the Bujinkan just want to train.
    You're so right Brian!

    Shicomm @ Japan 2010 : the 5th sensation... The sensation starts september the 13th !

  8. #8
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    Re: 15th Dan

    William Chow was a 15th Dan too...in Kenpo.
    Steve Zalazowski,
    Continuing student of the Arts.

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    Albertus is offline
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    Mushi Mushi Re: 15th Dan

    I am glad my post triggers so many different responds. That was the whole point, to start a conversation about this. I'll start with stating my believe, I don't think you need a rank to follow the Path and originally there were no ranks in Ninjutsu, but if someone needs a rank that's fine with me. Secondly I have nothing against women, I like them, it just surprised me that there were so few with the highest rank, so my comments were just a little joke, no offense. Maybe the women are just to smart to chase after these ranks!

    Keep posting, and I didn't know there is also a 15th Dan in Kenpo.

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    Re: 15th Dan

    I recently promoted myself to 144th dan in the best, ultimate MA system that the world ever has or will ever know, which I will be inventing tomorrow.

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    Re: 15th Dan

    Quote Originally Posted by Albertus View Post
    And what is there to strive for when you are a 15th Dan, at often such a young age?
    I do not like rank chasing, I think it is detrimental to your training! I personally don't train to "try and get a certain rank". I train because I like the training. It benefits my life. When put into perspective, rank is quite trivial.

    Most of the time I don't wear a belt, unless we are doing sword work or something.
    Train safe,
    David Russ

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    Florida Bujinkan Network
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    "The true warrior is never at peace, because the biggest battle is within." -- Doug Wilson

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    Koryu Rich is offline
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    Re: 15th Dan

    Quote Originally Posted by Albertus View Post
    I am glad my post triggers so many different responds. That was the whole point, to start a conversation about this. I'll start with stating my believe, I don't think you need a rank to follow the Path and originally there were no ranks in Ninjutsu, but if someone needs a rank that's fine with me. Secondly I have nothing against women, I like them, it just surprised me that there were so few with the highest rank, so my comments were just a little joke, no offense. Maybe the women are just to smart to chase after these ranks!

    You assume that people are chasing rank! Rank is awarded sometimes in can be becuase it is sought and others it's unexpected.

    I've no doubt there are some out there that do chase rank but I bet there are a lot that don't.

    Rather than questioing those who have rank I always find it odd that some point out that they turned down a certain rank on x amount of occasions as opposed to those that just accept the rank as a gift/encouragement and then work their backsides off to improve themselves even more.

    At the end of the day it's a good test of character.
    Do you sit back and think "right I've done it now I do in fact rock" or do you think "dam better get my ass in gear and make sure I can carry this off and justify the faith that's been put in me"???
    Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines

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    Re: 15th Dan

    Just out of curiousity , why do you care about who has what rank and how does that effect your training?

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    Re: 15th Dan

    Quote Originally Posted by Albertus View Post
    I am glad my post triggers so many different responds.
    "triggers"? I think you're giving yourself a lot of credit. This IS a discussion board, after all...
    Quote Originally Posted by Albertus View Post
    That was the whole point, to start a conversation about this. I'll start with stating my believe, I don't think you need a rank to follow the Path and originally there were no ranks in Ninjutsu, but if someone needs a rank that's fine with me. Secondly I have nothing against women, I like them, it just surprised me that there were so few with the highest rank, so my comments were just a little joke, no offense. Maybe the women are just to smart to chase after these ranks!
    Keep posting, and I didn't know there is also a 15th Dan in Kenpo.
    You're not listening/reading. Most folks in the Bujinkan don't care about rank. Last time I was in Japan, I was recommended to take the Sakki test by two Japanese shihan. I told them I'd rather spend that 50,000yen on training.

    The purpose of ranking in the Bujinkan is a bit different than other arts. If I were you, I'd spend more time obsessing over what these "ranks" mean to folks actually in the Bujinkan, instead of how many mega-dans there are out there.

    Oh, & BTW, please share with us your historical knowledge of "Ninja".
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