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Thread: Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

  1. #76
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    Re: Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Arthur
    You maybe correct in stating that the Kuji of Mikkyo is different from that of the various Ryu Ha, But then the various Ryu Ha have different Kuji from each other. I think what An Shu Hayes was probably trying to do was to give readers of his books a basic idea of Kuji from the source i.e. Mikkyo. Then as an advanced student, once one understands the process one can delve into the different types of Kuji that relate to the different warrior traditions.
    "[...]it would be a serious mistake to regard the essential natures of Mikkyo Kuji and Ninja Kuji as one and the same simply because Mikkyo contains a Kuji Goshin Ho.

    [...]

    However, the religious forms and the martial forms were quite different in character and nature."

    (Masaaki Hatsumi, Sanmyaku, Volume 2, Number 1)
    "They are indeed still trapped in hell, as were their predecessors, but postmythic men and women have at least, and finally, thrown off their childish images of deity as a protective parent sniveling over their every move, listening to their every wish-fulfillment, catering to their every immortality project, dancing to their every prayer of magic. Postmythic men and women did not get thrown out of Eden; they grew up and walked out, and, in now assuming rational and personal responsibility for a measure of their own lives, stand preparatory for the next great transformation: the God within, not the Father without."

    - Ken Wilber, A Sociable God: Toward a New Understanding of Religion

  2. #77
    Grey Eyed Bandit is offline
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    Re: Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Arthur

    Now what has been mentioned is that Ninjutsu does not contain physical techniques. Really, I thought Togakure Ryu contained the techniques of the Santo/Soto Tonko No Kata, Mokuton Kata, and Kenjutsu.
    Precisely, Togakure ryu contains these things among others. Togakure ryu per se is not ninjutsu, it is a school of classical Japanese martial arts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Arthur
    In fact in Tanemuras Ninpo Secrets he shows a grid slash using Rin, Pyo, Toh etc. I have personally seen, as has many members of the Genbukan, Tanemura Sensei performing these Mudra prior to a seminar. But maybe Tanemura Sensei is borrowing from Mikkyo because he lacks knowledge too.
    What makes you think the experience of Hayes can be compared with that of Tanemura, especially since Hayes describes in "The Ninja and the Secret Fighting Art" how he got his a$$ handed to him by said gentleman, whom at the time had already been training with Hatsumi sensei for years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Arthur
    And if we are going to talk about the Mandala, well as I have stated, to understand the Nine Sylables in their eastern philosophy, one has to study the Mandala, as each finger represents a buddha which is related on the mandala.
    The application of which is not the same in budo and Mikkyo regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Arthur
    Supposed Blood Oath (Really, sounds like something we might hear Ashida Kim doing) are you sure about this. Who took it, or is it hearsay?
    Supposedly, a very inebriated Tetsuji Ishizuka told someone years ago that there were things the Japanese shihans had sworn an oath to Hatsumi sensei to never reveal without his permission. Most likely this simply referred to them not being allowed (at the time) to teach specific ryuha kata.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Arthur
    Its a little like the techniques Kage Nitto which Hatsumi Sensei performed when pulling a sword across his back.
    You mean kage no itto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Arthur
    So in relation to the edge on edge sword stop, is it not possible that its a deflection. How many times has Hatsumi Sensei stated that you cannot really capture the movement of Ninjutsu on a video camera, let alone a book.
    Well, that should solve the issue of distance courses at least.
    "The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction has to make sense."

  3. #78
    GBlues is offline Banned User
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    Re: Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

    Couple of issues that I have is this. People talking about the price of training being in the hundreds for Toshindo. Uhmmm.....ok so it is the same with Bujinkan. Ninjutsu training isn't cheap guys. You ain't going to pay 65 dollars a month for it unless you have special circumstances. I know cause where I live, they are all charging at least 120 dollars a month. I went to one Bujinkan instructor who only teaches twice a week, and he's charging 75 bucks a month at a ymca??????? And let me tell you mister his guys are not very impressive. I don't think that even one of them could hold there own in a self-defense situation. He had a couple of women in there that were, but mostly because of how flexible they were....ahem. From my understanding traditional ninjutsu is kind of taught laxidasically at best. If you learn a technique or something of the art that night it's kind of secondary to the instructor and students walking around playing patty cake all night. Now while I am sure that there are schools in my area that do not teach in this fashion, I am only speaking on one school that I personally observed.
    I am a current student at a toshindo school, and I don't pay that much, as I'm lucky if I can attend 3 to 4 times a month. I have never been told that I am part of the Bujinkan, and judging from what I have seen at the ymca, and from some individuals on here, I may quit if that is the case! I would not be proud to say that I was a member of the bujinkan at the this time, reading your posts.
    The Videos????? You guys are griping because he sells a home study course? He tells you that it is not recommended that you use it as your only source. My instructor and I talked about it and he recommended two videos for me to take with me when I go out of town, so that I have something to work with after work. Sort of a supplement to my training, and even at that, he told me to understand that they do do some things differently at the school that I train at. As it is with any martial art. No one teaches a technique or skill exactly the way it was taught to them. As far as ukemi goes, no it's not the first skill that you learn, but it is given probably more time than some of the other things on the videos. It is still very much alive in toshindo, it's just that Anshu-Hayes, feels that you should be able to protect yourself and so should learn something useful to you outside of the school first.
    Yeah, I'm walking down the road and a guy punches me in the face, I can roll, but on the way up what do I do now? Get kicked in the mouth, that's what. All of my research has lead me to believe that every practioner in ninjutsu is encouraged to make it there own, and if you decide to teach it, you will teach it that way. What is the problem if you call it toshindo or bujinkan, or genbukan. When I become a teacher maybe I'll call it something else, that fits with the way I see the art, and my students will do the same.
    You guys are stuck on I study this it's the best, well that's a load of horse crap! Shouldn't you just be happy that someone who has actually trained in ninjutsu is teaching it, and promoting the art as opposed to someone who learned karate and is teaching it as ninjutsu?
    As far as it being about money, I don't see that my instructor was more than happy to have me in his classroom, and more than willing to work out an acceptable payment plan to both of us. However, I would be willing to pay his full price if I could attend more often.
    The meditations and self-improvement aspects have even come under attack in this thread. I can't see a problem with trying to make yourself a better person. That is one of the things that always attracted me to ninjutsu in the movies. It wasn't just the martial aspects, but the spiritual aspects as well. Which by the way, the mental and spiritual aspects are more important than the martial. I will tell you this the majority of the students that I have trained with, even the kids at the toshindo school, are far better than most adults I've seen in other systems, and even at the ymca guys mcdojo bujinkan.
    What Anshu-Hayes has done is create a way to learn in a systematic, well structured environment, so that every night you go to class, you are not going to be walking around playing patty cake. You are going to learn something. And he most certainly makes authentic ninjutsu training available to his students. So you guys out there need to stop shooting your mouth off, and worry about your bujinkan buddies as you seem to be more worried about the name than the art. Sorry I'm angry but you guys are bad for this stuff, and I most certainly don't mean to offend, but that's how I see it.

  4. #79
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    Re: Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

    Quote Originally Posted by GBlues View Post
    Couple of issues that I have is this. People talking about the price of training being in the hundreds for Toshindo. Uhmmm.....ok so it is the same with Bujinkan. Ninjutsu training isn't cheap guys. You ain't going to pay 65 dollars a month for it unless you have special circumstances.
    I pay 20 dollars a month. It's not "special circumstances" either, thats just what we pay.

    But, I also realize thats not typical of most schools.

    And I don't think using videos as supplemental instruction is bad... its just guys like Hayes and VonDonk that let you rank by sending in Tape o yourself after you shell out the 100's for thier "home study courses" that get my dander up... Why not just sell me a belt rank, it would be about as effective.
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    Re: Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

    Quote Originally Posted by GBlues View Post
    and promoting the art as opposed to someone who learned karate and is teaching it as ninjutsu?
    Oh god, I caught this after I made the other post, and I know that this is gonna start a war, because NO ONE who studies Toshindo wants to believe it... but I train with Former Shadows of Iga instructors who witnessed this first hand, and several members (or former members) of this board confirmed they saw the same thing which is what prompted them to leave Hayes organization...

    When Hayes Created Toshindo he went and gave weekend seminars to TaeKwondo Schools and their like that PAID for the "honor" of being able to teach "Ninjutsu"... TWO DAYS TO A WEEK OF TRAINING and they became "Toshindo Masters" so that comment is BS, thats exactly what you have in some cases... Karate Guys passing off what they have as Ninjutsu after taking a seminar.

    Even the Quest center here was put up for sale rank and all, only the guys who bought it were senior students in TSD rather than some Karate guys... but they decided that TSD and the Bujinkan both weren't good enough so they formed their own -kan. *rolls eyes* But if I had the cash, *I* could have been a Toshindo master.
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    GBlues is offline Banned User
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    Re: Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

    Cryozombie I think that is wonderful! 20 dollars a month is a hell of alot better than 120 huh. I'm glad that you found some place that apparently you enjoy training and working out in. That's great. And it's sounds like it is very affordable, must be able to get alot of students in the classroom, give you alot of different body styles to work with. That's awesome.

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    GBlues is offline Banned User
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    Re: Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

    That may be I don't know. I only know what I have seen first hand, and what little bit of research I have done on my own. I wish I could to Japan and learn from Haatsumi ( hope I spelled his name right), but funds are sparse for that kind of thing you know. Plus work.
    I know that my instructor learned from somebody he says that trained directly under Hayes. That's what I've been told. Now there are differences between what Hayes does on the videos, and what we do in class. Mostly small things, such as the way we punch, or strike is different, but the techinques for the most part are the same. So far. SO I don't know. I think it's kind of like when Bruce Lee died, alot of guys started spoutin off at the mouth about how they could stomp him. Easy to do when the guy is dead. And everything is like, that. I mean look at the big debate over Parker or tracy Kenpo. I've heard nasty things about both. How Parker Kenpo is not real Kenpo and Tracy's is better, so what. They look alot alike and the effect is basically the same. So are your friends right, could be. Are they angry maybe, I don't know. But in the martial arts world someone is always saying, " So and so isn't teaching traditional ninjutsu." Or Kenpo or taekwondo or kickboxing or whatever. Depends on your point of view. If you get something out of it, and enjoy it, what does it matter. Why, is it important whether, it's bujinkan or someone else's interpretation of bujinkan. Haatsumi doesn't practice or teach authentic bujinkan, he teaches his interpretation of it. Same as Dan Inosanto teaches his interpretation of jeet kune do.

  8. #83
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    Re: Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

    Quote Originally Posted by GBlues View Post
    Haatsumi doesn't practice or teach authentic bujinkan, he teaches his interpretation of it.
    I suggest some research before you post again. The Bujinkan is an umbrella organization created by Hatsumi sensei.
    Jeff Velten

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    kaizasosei is offline
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    Re: Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

    i'm sorry but why should one change his art around just because 'people' can't handle it.? sounds a little pretentios to me.
    who are 'people' anyhow??? surely some youngsters with lots of energy are more hardcore and able to handle much.
    of course there will always be students that are no good?? to adapt a little to make things a bit easier without making a big deal, i can understand, but to change the art around and make up a new art that harbours little innovation or actual difference at all(other than being watered down). im sorry- i speak japanese quite well already, but what exactly does anshu mean?? i could still use some clarification on this point. maybe explain the kanji??
    if i see someone is not talented i might well change the teachings around a bit for them sectretly. but to come right out and say ' people are too lazy or incapable of handeling the real thing-' sounds pretentios-even audacious to me.

    just trying to retort and share my honest opinion. long have i kept silent.

  10. #85
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    Re: Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreth View Post
    I suggest some research before you post again. The Bujinkan is an umbrella organization created by Hatsumi sensei.
    Meanwhile, at Wikipedia they're trying to decide whether it's a ninjutsu style or not:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bu...f_organisation

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    Re: Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

    Quote Originally Posted by arnisador View Post
    Meanwhile, at Wikipedia they're trying to decide whether it's a ninjutsu style or not:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bu...f_organisation
    Yeah but...

    any idiot can put anything into Wikipedia. I could log in and cite some website I create that says Arnis isnt even a martial art its a dance style. Would that make it true?
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    Re: Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

    Well, this is a more formal WP action (an RFC), attempting to come to a conclusion that's intended to stick and be semi-enforced.

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    GBlues is offline Banned User
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    Re: Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

    Well ok I'm sorry, let me put it to you this way Hatsumi doesn't teach authentic 5,000 year old ninjutsu, he teaches his interpretation of the ninjutsu he was taught, and now calls it bujinkan. You guys get to caught up in names. Who cares.
    If a guy believes that the moon is made out of green cheese, should you try to destroy what he believes simply because it wrong? Or does it matter in the grand scheme of things? Probably not, and all it does is start an argument for no reason. If people want to believe they are learning a legit art, and you feel that it's not, so what? If they are learning self-defense, and it works for them shouldn't you just say ok cool, if you like it do it. I choose to learn from this guy, because I feel that he has what I'm looking for. No big deal.
    But your like a bunch of little want a be gang bangers trying to claim your turf and mark your territory. I'm just trying to state a simple fact of martial arts. That no one in any style teaches authentic ( the way it was originally taught by the founder) martial arts!! They teach there interpretation of what it is they have been taught. So again if a guy calls Bujinkan, or Genbukan, or anything else what freaking difference does it make? Really? How much difference does it make. If all I wanted was to learn some outdoor survival skills, and some stealthy tactics, and self-defense and a green beret is teaching something like this and it is effective and works, does it really matter if he calls it ninjutsu. Probably not, cause I'm probably going to get the same basic stuff!!!!Techniques aren't ninjutsu, but the stealth and survival probably are, and are probably more effective than authentic ninjutsu, cause it's taught by our countries finest! It doesn't matter, simply put it doesn't matter.
    If I get what I'm looking for and searching for, why does anybody out there give a ****! If I'm happy and other people are happy why do want to make other people miserable like yourselves. That's all you do. Make people miserable, because they were happy with what they were learning, and now, you have destroyed it. Does that make you feel good? Maybe they're instructor, really did go through the Bujinkan and learn hatsumi's style, and then decided they liked the idea of toshindo, and they taught, authentic ninjutsu under a quest center flag.
    Now that person will leave there school, because you had a big mouth, had to ruin someones reputation. More importantly you had to ruin a students view of there instructor.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ7PuSFD_Hc
    I see that everyone else can post links so here is one you can watch so you can see toshindo Blackbelt for yourselves. Ok?

    Again after you watch it, does it matter what it is that he's learned seems like it probably works for him.

  14. #89
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    Re: Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

    Quote Originally Posted by GBlues View Post
    Hatsumi doesn't teach authentic 5,000 year old ninjutsu, he teaches his interpretation of the ninjutsu he was taught, and now calls it bujinkan.
    And this comment is based on your vast experience as a TSD white belt?
    I choose to learn from this guy, because I feel that he has what I'm looking for. No big deal.
    Fantastic. You just happen to be the second TSD beginner in as many weeks to join this forum and post about how the Bujinkan sucks and TSD is the epitome of martial arts training.
    But your like a bunch of little want a be gang bangers trying to claim your turf and mark your territory.
    I suggest you check the forum rules. Personal attacks are a no-no...
    Jeff Velten

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    Re: Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreth View Post
    And this comment is based on your vast experience as a TSD white belt?
    Hey now, what gives you the right to say you know more, just because the blackness of your belt was earned thru many many years of study both here and in Japan.

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