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Thread: Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

  1. #16
    Karazenpo Guest

    Re: Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

    Quote Originally Posted by kelly keltner
    I actually have a technical question for you Mr. Bishop. When and where were the pinon katas that Kajukenbo does developed they are drasticly different than any of the japanese/okinawan versions I have seen.

    Kelly
    Sigung John is right when he said: "Here we go again". I will answer the above and John can correct me if I'm wrong. The orignal 'pinans' of Kajukenbo have nothing to do with the 5 pinan Okinawan series. I'm going to guess Sijo Emperado originally called them pinans because he was told by his seniors that the original art that all these Hawaiian derived systems sprung from was 'Okinawan' in origin. Later, he decided to change the names to the 'Palama' sets to reflect the original Palama settlement where they were developed. Kelly, Professor Abregana is being as objective as humanly possible with his part of the A&E investigation and it does seem that there is an Okinawan connection through the Motobu lineage, not Motobu himself, but one of his first or second generation black belts by the name of Nabura Tanamaha. Again, we are awaiting information from Shihan Michael Brown as to a Japnese connection with Mitose. Information provided to me by Shihan Brown is very interesting and does connect Mitose to Japan but not to the Yoshida clan. I realize all will have to see these documents released to the public so they may be scrutinized. We are all awaiting this release. I can also say Shihan Brown is a very respected martial artist in my area and he is totally committed to investigating this controversial subject. As far as I go, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other, I just would like to have the facts straight when I am asked by students and, to be honest, my own curiosity. Regardless of the outcome, it does seem Mitose taught something that he called Kenpo and should he had wished to change it to Kosho ryu and we find it is totally Okinawan in origin that is a fitting name since one of the spelling of Kusanku (Chinese emmissary/general who who is acredited to bringing his interpretation of Chinese Kung Fu to Okinawa) is also spelled 'Kosho'kan. Now, the only lineage that William Chow can be traced through a 'paper trail' is Mitose's with Chow's black belt certificate signed by Thomas Young, Mitose's first black belt. Pictures also show Chow training under Mitose. Again, if one believes in lineage then there is no way Mitose can be cut out of it and for the 100th time, no, I don't condone his criminal activities, hey, I've been a cop for almost 28 years, I would have put him away myself if I was assigned to the case. Although my students are taught of his place in our lineage they are also told of his dark side. To me, imho, that's the way to handle it! I know many, for good reason, wish to deny his position but doing so would be historically inaccurate. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

    PS: As far as all the other 'garbage' goes, it seems these days everything revolves around the 'Almighty $' , many do have 'hidden agendas' for what they do but they are not all that 'hidden', just look for EGO & MONEY and you'll find the true answers. Personally, I'm getting tired of it all! Too much damn commercialism and too many people wanting to be the baddest dude on the planet. You think a lesson would have been learned in that not even Iron Mike Tyson could fullfill that fantasy!

  2. #17
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    Mushi Mushi Re: Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

    Hi Professor,

    I was waiting for your reply, which as always, was good and to the point.

    My agenda is the truth, and ''NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH". Easy for us to know where I came up with that one! <(8-)..

    Regarding, "here we go again", I had to begin the thread because it is from a different angle. I'd like to hear from anyone pro, con, good, bad.

    The ball is rolling, and it's not going to stop regarding the A&E Documentary. The issues are not as simple as my questions.

    Many Agenda's involved and much at stake for quite a few individuals. It would be nice to think the Documentary will be honest and non-political. However with some of the comments made, I can see that Hanshi Bruce will be a footnote, rather than a chapter, that would be unfortunate and inaccurate.

    Over many years, during his travels, Mike Brown has gathered information for Hanshi Bruce Juchnik regarding the history and documentation of GGM James M. Mitose.

    Professor, do whatever is necessary to bring the Truth foreward. If you are a player, let us have the Truth.

    As in the movie "A Few Good Men", I CAN handle The Truth! Can others on this board say the same?

    Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo is not the Latin of Martial Arts. A half a century of Martial Arts Geniuses... Sijo Emperado, the late Ed Parker, Al Tracy, and Hanshi Bruce Juchnik have added to this living martial art known as Kempo/Kenpo.

    Hanshi Bruce Juchnik is a person who stood by James Mitose in his last half decade. Thru thick and thin, Hanshi has tried to spread the Mitose Martial Art as personally taught him by GGM James M. Mitose. GGM Mitose authorized Hanshi Bruce to teach and develop the GGM Mitose Martial Arts as he saw fit.

    Only a closed mind would claim that there is nothing to be learned from all the existing Martial Arts Systems, and each major master in every martial art has an agenda... except for my personal favorite... Motobu Choki or Choki Motobu.

    Regards, Gary

  3. #18
    kelly keltner is offline
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    Re: Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

    Thank you Professor

    The reason behind my questions about the Kajukenbo Pinons is this. The Kajukenbo version of pinon shodan is almost the same as the neko buto kata we do in kosho ryu.
    The neko buto was taught to Bruce Juchnik by Robert Trias who learned them from James Mitose. If this is true then it suggests a link between the two katas and raises questions about statements being made about Mitose only teaching and knowing Nai Han Chi.
    Also in accordance with a post John Bishop made in a seperate thread there was a lot of cross training going on back then so Mitose going to another school to train in an Okinawan style is not unplausible. Especially if Mitose and Motobu new each other in Japan.
    Then again if Mitose made the whole Kosho Ryu thing up. The more power to him. When GoJu ryu came to Hawaii in 1928 it was approximatly 14 years old. Parker created his system starting in the fiftees. chinese kempo, kajukenbo. None of these systems are so ancient that they can really claim a leg up on any one else.

    My only concern about the A&E special is that it seems that nobody has contacted Hanshi Juchnik. I am concerned because I know he has some of the documentation pertaining to Mitose in his time in Hawaii. Plus the fact he was one of Mitose's last students. He also has hours of video tape interviews with people who were around when Mitose was in Hawaii. Has anyone from A&E contacted Mike Brown and tried to get some of his information. Lastly, I have tried to get John Bishop to contact Hanshi Juchnik concerening information Hanshi Juchnik has that Mr. Bishop wanted to see. Yet when given the oppurtunity Mr. Bishop declined. So my Question is why aren't these people being sought out. I'm not saying that the Bruce Juchnik/Kosho version of the truth is what the A&E special should be about. If a police officer is investigating a crime and he hears that some one might have valuble info regarding that crime. Doesn't he have a responsibility to follow that lead up. Not doing so might be considered lack of due dilligence on his part. It could lead to the crime not being solved. Or worse yet, the wrong person being convicted.
    So what I'm saying is this; Jaime Abregana and John Bishop in conjuction with A&E have a lead that needs to be followed up. If they do not follow it up then they are doing a great disservice to the martial arts community as a whole.

    kelly
    Never argue with a fool, for he may be doing the same thing.

  4. #19
    kelly keltner is offline
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    Smile Re: Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

    One more thing off the topic Hanshi Bruce Juchnik's annual gathering will be in Portland Oregon this year in September. Information can be obtained at www.collectivesociety.com or private message me if anyone has any questions.

    kelly
    Never argue with a fool, for he may be doing the same thing.

  5. #20
    Karazenpo Guest

    Re: Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

    First let me say Gary is right in stating many have much at stake. So, why should anyone put any credence into what I am reporting? Very simple. I have NOTHING at stake. I am not the 'creator' of some new 'kick ass' style nor am I a successor to some lineage passed on from generation to generation. I'm just a simple guy who is trying to survive on the street as a cop who wants to get home to his family at the end of his tour and a guy who wants to pass on the art but not a myth or give his students a false sense of security passed on by egocentric dojo warriors who don't have a clue what it's like to use what they know in reality situations. Am I being kind of harsh, yeah, a little bit but like I said before, I'm getting tired of the 'whitewash' that's been going on in the martial arts for many years now. Kelly, I have to return a phone call to Professor Jaimie Abregana, it has nothing to do with the A&E investigation but as a courtesy to you, I will give you input on this situation. I promise. Some kenpo/kempo people are claiming they have a superior martial art...B.S. As long as you system encompasses hands, feet and grappling, standing or on the ground thenyou have a solid, well rounded martial art. Take something out of that formular and then maybe, yes, you do have an INFERIOR marital art and why? Simple, because it doesn't allow for all the possibiliteis that can happen in a real encounter. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

  6. #21
    kelly keltner is offline
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    Re: Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

    Thank you professor

    I must say you are one of the very few people on these martial arts disscusion forums that I truly have respect for. I at least know if I ask you a question. I will get an answer. Whether I lke the answer or not, I know it will at least be objective. You are truly a genlteman and a credit to your art.


    kelly
    Last edited by kelly keltner; 08-08-2004 at 06:32 PM.
    Never argue with a fool, for he may be doing the same thing.

  7. #22
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    Mushi Mushi Re: Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

    Hello Kell,

    We were talking the other day and you were asking me about the early Katas?

    I told you where to go? Or did I? I also am going to make a few phone calls and seek a little bit on my own, I still have some contacts, I will let you know how it goes.

    Thanks for posting and putting that information up for the Gathering.

    Regards, Gary

  8. #23
    Karazenpo Guest

    Re: Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

    Quote Originally Posted by kelly keltner
    Thank you professor

    I must say you are one of the very few people on these martial arts disscusion forums that I truly have respect for. I at least know if I ask you a question. I will get an answer. Whether I lke the answer or not, I know it will at least be objective. You are truly a genlteman and a credit to your art.


    kelly
    Kelly, Thank you for the kind words. As I promised, I spoke to Professor Abregana about an hour ago and voiced him your concerns. He will be fair and balanced in his investigation. He is a man of integrity. There is no hidden agenda what-so-ever. If you have any questions that I haven't answered please e-mail me at my private address and I will put you in touch with him. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

  9. #24
    Karazenpo Guest

    Re: Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

    I received an amicable private e-amil asking me if I mean't the Kosho people were the ones who acted like they had a superior art. No, not the Kosho people and there is no reason to elaborate beyond that-no need to start a flame war.

  10. #25
    Karazenpo Guest

    Re: Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

    Let me also say this in all due respect to the Kosho people. I am not at liberty to give details but as of this time I feel Mitose's lineage is most definitely Okinawan through Nabura Tanamaha of the Motobu lineage. Members of his family may be indeed connected to martial arts in Japan as stated by Shihan Mike Brown but from what I understand Mitose was born and brought up in Hawaii and only left Hawaii for the mainland United States in 1953. I now don't believe he was ever in Japan but I will stand corrected if someone can show verification otherwise. Let me also say this. Despite the myths and his criminal background, I still have no problem accepting him as the founder of our Hawaiian-derived Kenpo. He may not have been the 21st descendant but possibly the 1st. It is my opinion Kosho Ryu may have been Mitose's own eclectic blend of Okinawan Kenpo and whatever Jiu Jitsui he picked up from Professor Henry S. Okazaki's Danzan Ryu that I think we all can confirm he had exposure to. Some feel that Mutzu's Okinawan Kenpo contained the Tori-te (grappling art) so prodominate in Mitose's techniques and suggest this system may also have influenced his kenpo along with Motobu's art.

  11. #26
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    Mushi Mushi Re: Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

    Hi Professor:
    Flame-war or any other kind of problem I certainly don't need.
    I was suspended once on this board and I am not going there again.

    I have been expunged from another board for getting into it pretty hot
    an heavy regarding "sticking up" or "shuting up" I won't go there again either.
    why, because they won't let me back.

    My "Mom" used to say "don't burn your bridges" SON! I did not burn the bridge, I napalmed it. "No Mas" for me.

    Mom did not want me to go into the Marine Corps either. The nice thing about my Mom, is even when she was right and I did not listen, she still loved
    me and gave me comfort when I needed it, I still talk to her when I need some guidence..Now it is generally after the fact.. Regards, Gary

  12. #27
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    Mushi Mushi Re: Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

    Hi Professor:

    I am writing and you are posting, I am posting and you are writing , anyway.

    If you will look on my Profile, you will find that I started in Kajukenbo, that is because I went into a studio in North Hollywood and met a really good man and he was my first Sifu.

    I could really tell you some of the reasons I ended up there, but it is to much like the present as far as the board I was expunged from. History, I love it!

    I learned some of the basics and a few more things as I recall. I never was more then a white belt in Sifu John Leonings Dojo but it was enough.
    I went on to LAPD, (67) you were pretty much doing and learning what they taught or else. Mr. Robert Koga good man and instructor I can tell you that..

    With what I learned in the Marine Corps and from Sifu John I was on the right path for protecting myself in the streets of LA, before I became a PO.
    My first Instructor of Kajukenbo was a great guy and very high ranked, when in the 60s the rest were, not! (Enough SON!) Yes Mom. I still listen, this time anyhow. Regards, Gary

    PS. The Truth, we need the truth.. True... I have seen the Kanji for that
    one, it is great!! Either way the man is a friggen genius...Who?
    Hanshi Bruce Juchnik, thats who..G

  13. #28
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    Re: Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

    OK

    The original names of the Kajukenbo kata's were "Pinion's", not "Pinan's". They were also called "Monkey Dances" because even back then in the 40-50s most kenpo people knew that they had a connection to "Choki Motobu" who had the nick name "Saru" (english translation= monkey).
    They were created mostly by Adriano and Joe Emperado. Although there are some movements barrowed from Okinawan kata's, they are for the most part a Kajukenbo invention. The name "Pinion" is simply the way the Filipino Hawaiian's pronounced "Pinan".

    As to the A&E documentary, it is a 5 hour, 5 part documentary that is very much still in production. Kenpo is only one of the 5 parts. Mr. Juchnik has not been talked to yet because we are trying to talk to the old timers while they are still with us. A very important one is now 92 years old, and was a classmate of Mitose's when they trained in Honolulu, Hawaii as teenagers. There is photographic and documentary proof of this, including government documents from the State of Hawaii. Another interviewee is Dr. Arthur Keave, who is extremely old, and was once thought to have died or left Hawaii. He for the most part, did most of the writing for James Mitose. Bobby Lowe, Paul Yamaguichi, and others are also still with us. Since these men are still availiable, and Mr. Juchnik did not meet Mitose untill around 1977, it is much more important at this time to get this information from first hand witnesses.
    John Bishop

    "The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Prevail, is for Good Men to Do Nothing" Edmond Burke

    Kajukenbo is NOT a; "if you can afford it, we will award it" system.

  14. #29
    Karazenpo Guest

    Re: Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

    Quote Originally Posted by kelly keltner
    Thank you Professor

    The reason behind my questions about the Kajukenbo Pinons is this. The Kajukenbo version of pinon shodan is almost the same as the neko buto kata we do in kosho ryu.
    The neko buto was taught to Bruce Juchnik by Robert Trias who learned them from James Mitose. If this is true then it suggests a link between the two katas and raises questions about statements being made about Mitose only teaching and knowing Nai Han Chi.
    Also in accordance with a post John Bishop made in a seperate thread there was a lot of cross training going on back then so Mitose going to another school to train in an Okinawan style is not unplausible. Especially if Mitose and Motobu new each other in Japan.
    Then again if Mitose made the whole Kosho Ryu thing up. The more power to him. When GoJu ryu came to Hawaii in 1928 it was approximatly 14 years old. Parker created his system starting in the fiftees. chinese kempo, kajukenbo. None of these systems are so ancient that they can really claim a leg up on any one else.

    My only concern about the A&E special is that it seems that nobody has contacted Hanshi Juchnik. I am concerned because I know he has some of the documentation pertaining to Mitose in his time in Hawaii. Plus the fact he was one of Mitose's last students. He also has hours of video tape interviews with people who were around when Mitose was in Hawaii. Has anyone from A&E contacted Mike Brown and tried to get some of his information. Lastly, I have tried to get John Bishop to contact Hanshi Juchnik concerening information Hanshi Juchnik has that Mr. Bishop wanted to see. Yet when given the oppurtunity Mr. Bishop declined. So my Question is why aren't these people being sought out. I'm not saying that the Bruce Juchnik/Kosho version of the truth is what the A&E special should be about. If a police officer is investigating a crime and he hears that some one might have valuble info regarding that crime. Doesn't he have a responsibility to follow that lead up. Not doing so might be considered lack of due dilligence on his part. It could lead to the crime not being solved. Or worse yet, the wrong person being convicted.
    So what I'm saying is this; Jaime Abregana and John Bishop in conjuction with A&E have a lead that needs to be followed up. If they do not follow it up then they are doing a great disservice to the martial arts community as a whole.

    kelly
    Hi Kelly, where did you hear that the Neko Buto kata was taught to Robert Trias by James Mitose? I have corresponded with Dr. Roberta Trias-Kelley and she did confirm a relationship of her father with Mitose back in those early years. However, Shihan Mike Brown told me that it was Robert Trias who taught Mitose Naihanchi but now it seems it also could have been Nabura Tanamaha. Man, it gets confusing, doesn't it? Just when you think you have the answer, another plausible alternative comes up.

  15. #30
    Karazenpo Guest

    Re: Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bishop
    OK

    The original names of the Kajukenbo kata's were "Pinion's", not "Pinan's". They were also called "Monkey Dances" because even back then in the 40-50s most kenpo people knew that they had a connection to "Choki Motobu" who had the nick name "Saru" (english translation= monkey).
    They were created mostly by Adriano and Joe Emperado. Although there are some movements barrowed from Okinawan kata's, they are for the most part a Kajukenbo invention. The name "Pinion" is simply the way the Filipino Hawaiian's pronounced "Pinan".

    As to the A&E documentary, it is a 5 hour, 5 part documentary that is very much still in production. Kenpo is only one of the 5 parts. Mr. Juchnik has not been talked to yet because we are trying to talk to the old timers while they are still with us. A very important one is now 92 years old, and was a classmate of Mitose's when they trained in Honolulu, Hawaii as teenagers. There is photographic and documentary proof of this, including government documents from the State of Hawaii. Another interviewee is Dr. Arthur Keave, who is extremely old, and was once thought to have died or left Hawaii. He for the most part, did most of the writing for James Mitose. Bobby Lowe, Paul Yamaguichi, and others are also still with us. Since these men are still availiable, and Mr. Juchnik did not meet Mitose untill around 1977, it is much more important at this time to get this information from first hand witnesses.
    Thanks, Sigung John. I learn something new every day. I knew of Motobu's nickname of 'Saru' (monkey) because he moved like a monkey but I never made the connection of the 'Monkey Dances' with Motobu and yet, shame on me, the connection is so obvious. I always wondered why they were also referred to as monkey dances, I should have seen it!! Now, I don't know about Okinawan Neko Buko kata and Palama set #1 (Pinion) being the same ( I know Palama set #1 but not Neko Buko) but I do know that our fourth kata in Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, a direct subsystem of Kajukenbo was most definitely inspired by Okinawan Pinan #1 (Heian #2). Also, I believe I have seen the opening sequence of our #1 kata (kick-left/punch-right, Kick-right/punch-left) in an Okinawan karate forms book by Patrick McCarthy years ago. Now, put this together with Mitose and Nahanchi, the more I look at it, the more I see our Okinawan connection!

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